Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Hello, and welcome to the wonder Baba podcast. My name is Sheena Mitchell. I'm a pharmacist in mom of three. I'm here to chat all about child and family health. I combine healthcare and practical advice to help you on your parenting journey. I really hope you enjoy the show today. We are joined by girl Kenny Moore from Irish gay dads. So very welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 2 00:00:35 You're very welcome. Good to chat you.
Speaker 1 00:00:37 And you, before we dive into finding a little bit more about your own, can you tell me a little bit about Irish gay dads and how it came about?
Speaker 2 00:00:45 Yeah, so Irish gay dads started life through Facebook. About seven years ago, the founder was a guy called D Laly and, um, he and his husband were about to become parents and they didn't know many other men who had kids. So men who had kids with other men that is of course, so they set up the Facebook group and it's grown and grown. And now there's about a thousand members. The goal of the group really is to just allow the same sex dads to communicate with each other about issues, particularly around parenting. So lots of people in the group have children and I've had true surrogacy. Other members of the group are planning to do that. And then there's just a couple of people in the group who are kind of interested in the topic, but maybe not necessarily planning a journey. It's, it's a really good resource for anybody who is a gay male thinking about having kids.
Speaker 1 00:01:38 I know there is a lot of information on say citizens information. I actually was surprised to find a, a decent amount of information on things like surrogacy, but in general, you're probably relying on things like Facebook groups for a platform for information and knowledge exchange.
Speaker 2 00:01:54 Oh yeah, absolutely. There's a couple of different Facebook groups out there dealing with the concept of surrogacy, but a lot of the locations where international Sur advocacy as possible will not facilitate gay men. So really for gay men, there's only three locations where you can have a child through surrogacy. That's the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. Like when, when we started our fertility journey Shamus and I back, God, it's nearly 11 years ago. Now we thought we were the only gay couple in Ireland to want to have kids. We made lots lot mistakes along the way, simply because we had nobody to talk to about it. Irish gay ads is a really brilliant resource to have in that it allows people to, to avoid duplicating the mistakes of others because other Facebook groups that discuss surrogacy, as I said, deal with surrogacy as a general concept and as a global concept. But as I said, gay men are very limited in the locations where they can go to. So the other groups aren't as relevant for that reason.
Speaker 1 00:02:47 A lot of surrogacy from Ireland happens in the Ukraine. So is it a case that those countries literally just will deal with male, female couples period? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:02:56 So if you wanted to have a child through surrogacy in the Ukraine, you have to be a heterosexual and married couple.
Speaker 1 00:03:01 Right? Okay. Before we get into the nitty gritty. Now, could you tell me a little bit about yourself and Shamus and you have three children now? I believe we do. So I'd love to hear all about how you met and if you don't mind what it was like growing up as a gay man in Ireland, uh, and how he found each other and all the nice stuff. That's what I want to know.
Speaker 2 00:03:22 <laugh> yeah. And it's lovely to talk about all that nice stuff. So I met Shamus back in 2009. It was kind of a miracle that we met each other because Shamus is really into running. Like he's not here tonight. He's gone out for a big, long run. And I actually met him in a running club. And the reason I say it's a miracle is cuz I hate running <laugh> but <laugh> I was there because I was friends with a group of guys that I used to play football with a group of gay guys. And they all kind of stopped playing football. And I was like, oh right. But I better go to, and they all joined the running club and I thought I hate running. But like, if I want to stay friends with these guys and kind of keep, keep up the social network I need to on the running club.
Speaker 2 00:04:00 So off I went to the running club and I saw Shamus at the club one morning, it's a gay, lesbian running club, the Dublin front runners. And they always meet up for coffee afterwards. As soon as I saw Shamus and this I've never said this about anybody else and I never will say it about every else. I fell in love with him. The minute I saw him and he was many different to anybody I'd ever dated in my life, Shamus is quiet. He's introverted. He thinks a lot. And everybody else I'd dated up to that was the exact opposite of that.
Speaker 1 00:04:30 Like to think a lot <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:04:32 Yeah. I'm thinking of loads of people that
Speaker 1 00:04:38 There's people listening there gonna be like, Hey,
Speaker 2 00:04:41 Hey, don't do that. Sorry. So yeah. Um, I, I should never really have met him cuz I should never been in a running club when I did meet him. I was going, but like, he's not like anybody I normally go for would be interested in, but literally the minute I met him, I left that running club that morning going that's the person I'm going to marry. We went in our first date. He was just before Christmas James' sister lives in Canada and he was heading away pretty much the next day or a couple of days later to Canada. And I didn't see him for another about five, six weeks. I rang him and I said, look, uh, do you wanna meet up for, uh, dinner on Saturday night kind of thing. And we did. And we chatted that night and we've never stopped chatting since
Speaker 1 00:05:22 Love and life is all about finding. And it literally is finding someone that you are excited and happy to live the rest of your life with and exactly when you find that it is an amazing, wonderful, wonderful thing. A lot of people go on to then, or, or maybe already, you know, always did wish to have children or have a family. So did you both those same desires? Was it something you'd put much thought into before you met Shamus?
Speaker 2 00:05:47 Yeah, I'd put loads of thought into it, but like, um, I'd been, uh, horrifically single for a long time before meeting Shamus and I didn't know of any other gay person who had kids. So again, as I mentioned earlier, I'm quite logical and kind of focused and I kind of thought, well, look, just put that out here, head now because you know, it's not possible for a gay man and certainly a single gay man to have kids. But then when Shamus and I got together, it was particularly kind of obvious from his side, like he from Dublin and he's surrounded here in Dublin by his brothers and sisters and his nephews and nieces. And when we started going out in those first couple of months, his brother and wife and their three kids lived in there in the house. We now live in Shamus house because they were having a refurb. As soon as I met Shamus, kids were part of his life. His nephews and nieces were, you know, people he spent time with at weekends in the evenings, he'd be out at their matches. So he was surrounded by kids and it was very obvious to me that he was as interested in being a parent as I was. So it became part of our kind of discussion very, very, very early on in our relationship cuz I, I did want it, but as I said, I'd kind of closed my mind off to the possibility.
Speaker 1 00:06:59 And I find that incredibly sad. That's a very reasonable thought to think, well, I'm a man. And you know, I'm partnering up with a man whether through marriage or whatever, having children is not automatically going to be easy, but just thinking and isn't you there, like it just is so heartbreaking that it's so difficult and such a fight. Something was said for the purposes now the podcast, it, it was today with the day we're recording the 28th of April in the erectus meeting. And I thought it was just a fabulous phrase and I'm sorry that I can't remember who said it, but they said that the want of a child is defined by the human spirit and not by sexuality. And I just thought that was the most real thing I had heard in a while. You know, any man and woman kind of a baby and it doesn't have to be a considered thing. So any child that is born in my mind to a gay couple is going to be a very, very, very loved child and a lot of thought will have gone into family life. Um, not like, you know, every hetero couple mm-hmm <affirmative> and I just, yeah, for me, that is a huge difference between gay parents. And I actually think that should always be remembered.
Speaker 2 00:08:18 Yeah, absolutely. Um, as I said, in my case, I thought about how it might happen and realized how complicated it was going to be and didn't have the courage to even start the journey cuz I just thought what's the point in, in, in trying something that would be so, so, so difficult to overcome. So yeah, I had, by the time I met at Shamus, um, I had just put it outta my mind and kind of said, yeah, no, I'll, I'll live an alternative kind of life or follow an alternative life path and you know, have lots of nice holidays and have a great career or whatever. I dunno what I was going to do. But the kids thing, I'd kind of very much put her to bed at that stage by the time by the time Shamus came along.
Speaker 1 00:08:59 So what changed
Speaker 2 00:09:01 Shameless <laugh> yeah. Um, just seeing, you know, what a natural person he was. I could just see him as a dad and then that kind of immediately reignited the spark for me that I had you inside me. And as I said, within a couple of months of meeting him, we were very sure we were committed and that we were going to have a future together. And we were starting to have the conversation about not, should we have kids? It was could we have kids and how could we do it?
Speaker 1 00:09:32 And how did you start that journey? All of trying to find out what the pathways are in Ireland,
Speaker 2 00:09:39 Uh, Google
Speaker 1 00:09:40 <laugh> any like citizens information, <laugh> see
Speaker 2 00:09:45 The thing like, like you mentioned, and it's great to know that, that there is now official information out there and sources of information, but back in, I mean it's only, it sounds like it was hundred years ago, but it was 10 years ago. I knew nobody would've been on this journey and there was no reliable sources of information that you could go to. So we literally Googled something like where can gay men have children or something like that. Yeah. And um, then we joined all sorts of Facebook groups. There was no gay Facebook groups for, or gay parents that we came across anyway. So we were trying to figure out well like, okay, that's what it seems to be like for a heterosexual couple. I wonder, can we try that? So we, haven't done a kind of, a bit of scooting around the internet for a couple of months and kind of come up with a rough ID in our heads. We then made an appointment with a solicitor, a family law solicitor, to figure out if what we thought was possible was possible.
Speaker 1 00:10:38 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:10:39 And we got lots of, uh, bad news there in that like the solicitor basically said to us, look, there is no legal framework in Ireland to support surrogacy journeys, whether you be a gay male, couple or an opposite sex couple or a single woman, a surrogacy, as far as the law in Ireland does not exist. And the solicitor albeit that he wasn't a specialist in fertility law said was, look, it's such a, a risky undertaking because there's no legal framework to support you. His advice was stay away from it. It's just too, it's too, it's too unknown from a legal perspective.
Speaker 1 00:11:15 And while it, it is not legal in Ireland, as it currently stands, it is also not illegal. As you said, it's, it's just not recognized.
Speaker 2 00:11:25 It just doesn't exist as far as the law is concerned. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:11:28 Just to go through a little bit of information for listeners that I learned today, and I'd highly recommend people listening into the Iraqis,
Speaker 2 00:11:34 The joint rockus committee around international surrogacy. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:11:38 That <laugh>. I definitely think that it, you know, it's very insightful. So obviously today you were explaining about the different countries, um, where it is possible. So you've got the USA and Canada and then you've got the UK. So we've talked a lot on this podcast before about what an intended parent is and obviously a biological parent. So an intended parent is the parent who wants to have, and parent the child in the case of surrogacy, please, correct me if I'm wrong on any of this girl, but in Surgay where you use a different donor for the egg, there's no biological tie with the surrogate in the USA and Canada, the intendant parents get legal rights. As soon as the child is born. Whereas in the UK, the surrogate remains the legal parent after the birth, until you return to Ireland and apply for a declaration of parentage and only the biological father is so the sperm, the sperm is not a donor really because it's your sperm.
Speaker 1 00:12:43 But the sperm provider <laugh> provider will we say is able to request the declaration of parentage in Ireland. Ultimately the Sur surrogate remains the legal mother, de surrogate is doing something because it means an awful lot to them. They are someone who understands, relates and has huge empathy to a family who wants to have a child. And hasn't been able, a surrogate does not want to parent the child. They want to give the gift of carrying the child to the couple, the intended parents. So for the surrogate to remain as the legal parent, that's complicated on so many levels and not right. Do you want to elaborate on that a little a bit?
Speaker 2 00:13:35 Yeah, I, um, you've got it pretty much in a nutshell, I'd say first of all, though, just very important for listeners to understand the vast majority of surrogacies nowadays involve what's referred to as gestational surrogacy. So that means that the couple need to get an donor before they can begin their journey. Most surrogacy journeys no longer involve the surrogate being the egg donor herself. Okay. Um, so if you go to take the gay male perspective, if you go to the Canadian system or to the United system that exists in the United States, you have to practice, what's called gestational surrogacy. So your journey begins with the one are both members of the gay couple donating sperm are being sperm, um, suppliers, and then using donated eggs in order to create your embryo, which are then transferred, uh, to the surrogate. There's no legal framework in Ireland that talks about what gay male couples must do nowadays around surrogacy.
Speaker 2 00:14:40 The Irish system assumes that the lady who gives birth to the child is the legal mother. And when that child is born, the Irish system sees her as the only parent that that child has. The Irish system doesn't distinguish whether or not she was the egg donor or whether she was a gestational surrogate. In other words, not genetically connected to the child she's given birth to as far as the Irish system is concerned. It doesn't matter because maternal parentage belongs to the person who gives birth. The Irish system then says, well, look, the male who donated sperm, he can be considered as the legal father, but he has to make an application. As we touched upon, as you touched one earlier for what's called a declaration of parentage to get his parental rights recognized. And he has to prove that he's genetically connected through a, um, a sperm analysis and a DNA test, uh, to the child.
Speaker 2 00:15:39 And then once that happens, he becomes the other legal parent. And then his partner, who is the intended father, one of the intended fathers for the first two years of the child's life, he has absolutely no legal rights to his child. He can't claim guardianship, which means that he can't bring the child for a medical appointment. He can't claim any welfare benefits for the child as you know, child children's allowance, or that has to happen through the legal father. He can't register the child in a crash. He can't pick up the child from a crash without a note. He can't register the child in a school. Uh, he can't bring the child outside the country, but without a note from the legal father. So the Irish system has no provision to allow both male parents to be considered legal parents. It'll only at best allow one of them, the genetic father to be the legal parent, to be the legal father,
Speaker 1 00:16:30 Two female pars. It can, and both become legal parents, whereas correct. And they can do that in Ireland.
Speaker 2 00:16:38 Uh, sperm donation is possible here in Ireland. So, um, so
Speaker 1 00:16:41 There's a complete inequality there because in essence, you're two different types of gay. Couple, one can get treatment in Ireland and have a family. And the other cannot
Speaker 2 00:16:54 Back in 2011, when we kind of first started to having spoken to the solicitor, uh, we tried to talk to the IVF clinics and they said, sorry, while we have no issue with, you know, it's not an L G B T uh, discrimination issue. It's just, we can't help a same sex male couple because there's no in place, that'll protect us in the event of something going wrong. So they said, look, we are really sorry. And here's some good clinics that you might try abroad basically was the, was the situation that we found ourselves in.
Speaker 1 00:17:25 Right. And that is all really down to the fact that the birth mother is the legal mother.
Speaker 2 00:17:30 Correct.
Speaker 1 00:17:32 So you guys chose to go abroad, obviously. Where did you look at first?
Speaker 2 00:17:39 So having done a little bit more research, we decided that the best place for us to try was to go to Canada. And the reason we went to Canada was it's the exact opposite of Ireland. There is specific laws dealing with pregnancies involving surrogacy everybody's rights and responsibilities are really, really clearly outlined. That is the rights and responsibilities of the intended parents as in Shamus and I, uh, the egg donor and the surrogate. And it's very much, um, model that's built around protecting the egg donor and protecting the Sur good. So it was really important to us that, you know, our children, if they did arrive would have a really kind of nice birth story that we wouldn't have to kind of hide anything from them or that we wouldn't be in a situation where we didn't have certain pieces of information about their genetic garbages, about their gestation origins.
Speaker 2 00:18:30 And the Canadian system has a really clear pathway to parenthood for the intended parent. So it basically says that the surrogate is fully in charge of the pregnancy up until the point of birth. And that literally gives her full bodily autonomy, the right to make all medical decisions around the pregnancy and her, her body, including the right to terminate the pregnancy. If she feels that's what needs to happen. But as soon as the child is born, then the intended parents in Canada, whether they be based from Canada or from overseas, like myself and Shamus become the legal per parents, as soon as the child enters the world, meaning that the intended parents can, all the decisions in the hospital, the child will go home with the intended parents. The intended parents will fully nurse the child in the hospital, et cetera, et cetera. And again, it doesn't distinguish in Canada between whether you're heterosexual or same sex, couple. So Canada just really appealed to us because it protected everybody from, from the perspectives that we were looking at all provided that it is a gestational surrogacy. Uh, in other words, that the surrogate was not the egg donor.
Speaker 1 00:19:35 Yeah. And I think a lot of what you said there is hugely important and really important for people to hear that it is possible to put a framework in place that will legislate for every stage of the process. And it is possible to protect the surrogate and the surrogate will remain a high priority. And from what I've heard, even listening to, I was listening to a podcast actually that Kathy Wheatley took part in, um, from yeah, now. And I just, I, I actually hadn't come across her before, but I was listening to our, on her, on the good glow podcast. And she spoke so beautifully about her relationship with her surrogate. Who's obviously Ukrainian and now here. And I just do, you know, I think that's a part that people forget, people value the gift that they're being given so much, and it is completely life changing.
Speaker 1 00:20:35 And I think people understand that it would be impractical impossible and not wanted to forget the role of the surrogate in the process. The surrogate, as we said earlier, doesn't want to be the mother. I know Kathy obviously has a very good relationship with her surrogate and, you know, remains actively involved in her life. I assume that's different for every couple and every surrogate because a lot of surrogates will have had their own families already and be busy and, you know, they want to do it, but they don't want involvement. And I suppose that's where finding a family that matched with a surrogate very well would be really important to want the same things.
Speaker 2 00:21:18 So the way it works, another aspect of the Canadian system that I didn't touch upon is that as an international parent intended parent, coming to Canada, you have to register with a, an agency that's a government appointed a government. Well, certainly a government regulated agency who are responsible for getting all of your records together, finding out what you're looking for in terms of, you know, relationship, for example, between you and the surrogate, and also your whole files, et cetera, et cetera, your identity, uh, checking your passports, all that sort of stuff. And then once they learn a little bit about you and the personality that you have, and the couple that you are, et cetera, they then try to find you a surrogate who might match well with you. And one of the key things that couples are encouraged to do in the Canadian system out exactly that piece, how do they want their relationship to look after the baby is born?
Speaker 2 00:22:13 You know, do they want somebody who's going to be like a, a foster auntie almost, um, you know, somebody who's gonna be really involved in the child's life and maybe even come over to Ireland or wherever, you know, to attend important occasions, or are they looking for somebody who's more happy to let and get on with the parenting and kind of not be step back as, as involved and, and the surrogates have the exact same perspective. Some surrogates, you know, really, really want a close bond with the intended parents. Some surrogates are happy to engage in the journey and then let the relationship be a little bit more casual. Yeah. So, yeah, that's a really important issue because obviously if there's a Mitch mismatch of expectations, it's going to cause hurt on both sides are certainly one of the sides.
Speaker 1 00:22:54 And you see, this is why I think regulation and frameworks in Ireland are so important going forward because everyone having good communication. And like I said, their expectations is so important. So what happened then in Canada are,
Speaker 2 00:23:09 I know you haven't asked me yet, but you know, when you're, it's, it's really important to kinda get this out there. It is expensive for a Canadian surrogacy journey. You're looking at in the region of a hundred thousand euros all in,
Speaker 1 00:23:22 Before you go on an important thing that I wanted to talk about. And I really want to highlight here that I could be being extremely ignorant, but altruistic versus commercial surrogacy.
Speaker 2 00:23:36 So there's a third one there called compensated, which is the Canadian system.
Speaker 1 00:23:40 Okay. So I'm gonna <laugh> hazard again, obviously altruistic is where you are just doing it to, to provide someone with a baby, because that feels amazing. I imagine. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:23:51 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:51 And then compensated is where an private arrangement is agreed and money is paid for expenses. If I were being a surrogate on a practical level, I'm gonna have to take time off work to go to medical appointments for me personally, because I had previous C-sections, it'd be a C-section delivery. So I'm gonna be like six weeks outta work afterwards. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, there's gonna be medical cost implications with the journey. I think to be honest, that's probably, it really, I'm sure you could add to it a lot, but what I'm saying is even by being happy to give the gift of surrogacy to someone, you might not be able to afford it without your expenses being covered. Exactly. I assume that's one type. You said this three
Speaker 2 00:24:39 I'm you're altruistic is probably not to use a kind of a very simple and common everyday exact, um, would be a scenario maybe where a best friend says to another best friend, look, I know you and your husband or you and your wife or whatever, uh, are struggling to have a kid. I would be happy to be the, the person who carries that pregnancy for you. Yeah. And, um, you know, you might agree, okay, look, we will cover you for your, and your taxes or whatever, whatever it is that would be considered altruistic, there is like, and again, you know, in the, in the door committee that's taking place at the moment, there's a big kind of conversation going on about what is compensated surrogacy versus what is commercial surrogacy? My understanding is that compensated surrogacy is what exists in Canada, whereby the surrogate is allowed to reclaim any of the costs that you touched upon there associated with the pregnancy. And that would, that would be defined in an agreement between her and the intended parents that would be supervis supervised by a lawyer. So any of the expenses that would be claimed by the surrogate would have to be,
Speaker 1 00:25:48 I think the conversation that's going on at the moment is about potential exploitation of surrogates and having a system in place where you have an agency or someone, and they can offer support and advice to the surrogate and also to the intended parents. Exactly. So that would get rid of any possible exploitation.
Speaker 2 00:26:07 Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, you mentioned it there. I mean the, the, the expenses exist during the pregnancy, but they can also continue beyond the pregnancy. For example, if the surrogate had a difficult labor and wasn't in a position to go back to work for a period of time, then there has to be a conversation had as to, well, who's going to make sure that the surrogate's income isn't negatively.
Speaker 1 00:26:28 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:26:29 Exactly. So that's what the Canadian model is. It's a compensated model then just to kind of finish off the explanation, there is a concept called commercial surrogacy, which is where the surrogate will be allowed to claim the expenses. And then an agreement can be reached between her and the parents as to how much of, of additional payment will be made from the intended parents to the surrogate for this stress that she might endure with the pregnancy or the time and the effort associated with being pregnant. I think in the commercial census, probably a, a payment at some point that doesn't necessarily have a receipt associated with it. The American system is very much, again, based on everybody having independent and legal medical and psychological advice before anything happens, you know, before they even tried to create embryos, uh, before the embryos transferred, et cetera. But the American system does allow for, as I said, the Canadian system just allows for the surrogate to we claim voucher expenses.
Speaker 2 00:27:25 The American system allows for the Sur to get that plus an additional payment, but that has generally agreed between the parties in advance, how much that's going to be, and when it's going to be paid and both systems, both the American and the Canadian system. I mean, the way they kind of ensure that everybody follows is obviously they, they create legal frameworks for the tend appear and the surrogate, but there's checks and balances to make sure that everything went according to what was agreed in the contract and agreed between the parties before acting started. So the American and the Canadian systems are very much about trying to understand the journey from start to finish and making sure that everybody does try to behave in a, in a good way as the, as the pregnancy progresses.
Speaker 1 00:28:04 <affirmative> and I, I know we keep getting distracted from this, cuz I think this is about the third time I've said, and then you were in Canada <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:28:11 Then we were in
Speaker 1 00:28:11 Canada. So I promise I won't interrupt again. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:28:13 Not at all. Like, I mean it's, as, as we've been discussing, uh, in the Iraqis committees over the last couple of weeks, this is a really complicated area and that's maybe one of the reasons why there is a Iraqis committee to try and out all these issues. So yeah, we're, we're in Canada, we've got the money together and we're delighted with ourselves and we're really naive thinking, well, look, we're most couples who come to surrogacy end up there because they're a heterosexual couple. Who've had years of infertility and awful heartache and I've met loads of them and their stories are just horrific. And we are there thinking, well, look, we're too relatively young fit, healthy meals with probably good sperm counts and well behaved sperm and all that sort of stuff. And then we're going to be getting an egg donation, um, probably from somebody who doesn't have a medical issue or a medical history.
Speaker 2 00:29:02 And uh, we'll hopefully have a Sur good who can help us to carry a, so we kind of thought the hard was almost over in trying to get the money together and get the courage together to start a Canadian journey. So off we went to our clinic in Toronto and we created four viable embryos and we had been matched with a surrogate and she was a, a terrific, terrific, terrific human being. And she knew somebody who had been a surrogate and she realized what a bloody empowering and brilliant thing to do. That's why she expressed interest in being a surrogate for somebody else. Cuz she realized that what her kids had done for her was so priceless. Why not help? Somebody who couldn't have kids? And she wasn't in a position to have more children. And we had joined an agency and by coincidence, she had joined the agency around the same time and having done our profile and her profile, they realized we might be a good match.
Speaker 2 00:29:53 And we were, then it all went pair shaped in that we transferred the four embryos and we did the first transfer and James and I were so excited and we were all there in the room, did the embryo transfer. And as I said, we were at the point where we were thinking, this is going to work. This is our, this is our time. Did the embryo transfer waited a couple of days, uh, did a, an at home pregnancy test, there was nothing. Uh, and then we kind of waited and hoped that, you know, it was wrong. There was nothing.
Speaker 1 00:30:26 Yeah. Give it a few more days.
Speaker 2 00:30:28 <laugh> give a few more days. Yeah, go on, go on. But then, uh, in the way, certainly in IVF pregnancies work, they, they do a blood test after a certain number of days. I can't remember exactly how many and yeah, there was no pregnancy, so okay. We just had to regroup and I mean, um, she, herself, the surrogate was, was as disappointed about it as we were, she was optimistic about being pregnant. So we tried again and again, did another transfer, didn't work and you guessed, we did a third transfer, didn't work. And at this stage, like our optimism is starting to decline and our stress levels are starting to go up because as I said, we had four embryos. So we transferred the fourth embryo and we all prayed and prayed and prayed and shes and I were at home one day and it was a Sunday afternoon and she just sent us a, an image on WhatsApp that I'll never forget. And it was just an empty, it was just, there was no line there. And she was being as up tic, as she always saw, she goes, I think there's a faint line there. And I was like zooming in and trying to enlarge depictions. Like there's nothing, there there's nothing there.
Speaker 1 00:31:30 Any parent listening regardless about that. And I, I'm not going to compare the standard two week weight that, you know, a hetero couple endure, which is hard enough for personal experience and stressful. I cannot imagine. I cannot imagine the stress when you know, you've had to do so much to orchestrate that attempt of pregnancy. I'm so sorry, because I know how heartbreaking that must have been.
Speaker 2 00:32:01 Yeah. Like, I mean, I, the way I described it was like, it was kind of one, one transfer after the next, after the next, but obviously it didn't work out like that. I mean, there was significant gaps sometimes between the transfers because her body needed to recover. She needed to maybe, you know, deal with stuff at home with her kids and then get back yeah. In a position where she could in to do an embryo transfer. And we were all the time, very conscious of her welfare and making sure that, you know, we weren't there come on, come on, you
Speaker 1 00:32:32 Know, stressing her. Yeah. Do it
Speaker 2 00:32:33 Again. So we always left it up to her. So the reality was the transfer of those four embryos took a combined period of about almost two years. She, and I would say to each other in that period, oh, look, you know, let's just wait for the next transfer now. And let's put that to bed in our minds. And we won't talk about that. And we won't think about it until five minutes later we were talking about it and thinking about it. So it was a, it was a two year period of our lives when yeah. We got on with life, uh, as best we could, but like we would also be saying to ourselves, well like, oh yeah, well, like, you know, we can't really book that holiday for next summer. Sure. Hopefully the baby will be here. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:33:06 You're not, you're not really,
Speaker 2 00:33:07 Every, everybody has been there.
Speaker 1 00:33:09 Yeah. In that, trying to conceive journey, you're not really living. Okay. So what did you do next after that?
Speaker 2 00:33:19 So when the fourth and final attempt had failed, we were like, I, I always I've said this before. The sound of silence in the house for weeks was just horrific. Cuz like we were just devastated, just literally devastated. And I couldn't even begin to figure out why, which of the emotions was causing us the most devastation because obvious of hopes and dreams of becoming daddies was gone. We had put our heart and souls into it emotionally. So we were devastated for that reason. And then we were broke like, I mean the money that we thought we had to get us through the journey and to get us to being parents was gone. Yeah. And more besides, because it had gone on for so long and there had been so many other additional on for seen kind of expenses and yeah, we were, we were lost cuz we didn't know where to go.
Speaker 2 00:34:06 Now Shamus will always say, when he looks back on it, he said he never give up. But I, when that for transfer failed and that Fort had been gone, I was convinced that, um, that, that was it. Thankfully there was never a significant period of time when both of us wanted to give up because there was definitely times during it when each of us wanted to give up and the other one was willing to stay going. Yeah, we begged, we borrowed and we sold. So we took a break from it for about a year and a bit. And during that time we both worked as hard as we could. We both had, as my mother would say good jobs. And um, we saved as much money as we can. Could we sacrificed things. And I was in the place where, when I met James, I had my own house here in Dublin and I had kept that as an investment.
Speaker 2 00:34:52 And thankfully the property market by that stage was starting to recover and there was a bit of equity in it and we said, right, we're selling the house. So we, I dunno, like I, I went into the first journey in Canada thinking, as I said earlier, this is definitely gonna work. Whereas I went into the next leap. Uh, and next journey thinking, nah, it'll never work. It's just not meant to be for us, but look, sell the house. Do you know, I have a kind of a thing like regret the things you did do rather than the things you didn't do. Absolutely. And I said, look, and we both agreed. Let's give it one more shot. Let's try one more time. We kept hearing about this really, really good clinic in the United States. So remember again, we're still at the point where no legislation has been passed in Ireland, IVF for gay male couples that required the support of a surrogate is still not possible in Ireland. So we went to this clinic in California, they did more tests and analysis on both of us. And they figured out maybe that there was an issue with both of our sperms and they decided that the suggestion was like, each of us would donate sperm for this journey. And
Speaker 1 00:35:57 What did you do the first time around?
Speaker 2 00:35:59 So the first time around, we just used one sperm from one person
Speaker 1 00:36:03 To have,
Speaker 2 00:36:04 Did you get your declaration of parentage? Yeah. You have to know, uh, who is the biological father.
Speaker 1 00:36:08 So in a way, it's it would've been more straightforward to have one sperm donor or not provider in that case. Yeah. Provider.
Speaker 2 00:36:14 Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. So this suggested, look, both of you donate, we will take an egg donation again. And they figured out that maybe I was the one who had more issues with my sperm than James. So what they suggested was that they would fertilize, I think two thirds of the eggs that were available to us, James' sperm and one third mine or was a three quarters and one quarter was something around that. And then we didn't know this, but in the us, when they have created your embryos for you, they send you back, uh, a report saying how many embryos you have. They tell you who is the biological link to the sperm, to the embryos. And they also tell you the gender of your embryos.
Speaker 1 00:36:56 Oh. So if you didn't want to know, I'm just insane. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:36:59 But we didn't really like, we didn't, uh, we didn't really want to know. And uh, but anyway, we found out like we didn't, whatever, couple of weeks of, uh, signing up at the clinic and going through the process, we knew we had six embryos and then we knew exactly who was biologically connected to them and how many boys and how many girls we might, we could have, which is not possible in other locations. So yeah, just, that's another thing to know about the us.
Speaker 1 00:37:21 Wow. <laugh> that's it's just, yeah. Like finding out the gender before the pregnancy begins. <laugh> yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:37:27 It's just little five day old. Embryo has a gender at that stage.
Speaker 1 00:37:30 Where did you go from there? <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:37:33 So where did we go from there? So this is where kind of everything changed first. Um, I had worked in London, I for about a year and a half and I had become very good friends with a girl from Birmingham. And we kept in touch over the years, albeit that like she had come back, she'd gone back to Birmingham and got on in her life and I'd come back to Ireland and got on in my life. But we always kept in touch and she had known what Shamus and I were up to in Canada and how disappointing it all was for us. And, uh, she, herself had had kids with her partner and I, she was in her early thirties and was very happy with having two kids. And she said to me, one day on a text message, <laugh> I'll do it for you. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:38:12 I, I can't like you're going, yeah. Yeah. You're not serious. But she was,
Speaker 2 00:38:17 She was, yeah. So she had heard about surrogacy again had come across somebody in the UK where surrogacy Guin is more common than here because it's regulated and uh, she's a bit DED in a good way. And she kind of thought, Jesus, that would be a great experience. I must try that sometime kind of was her mentality. As I said, we didn't call each other that often. But as soon as she sent me that message, I rang back, we talked about it and then I thought about it. And then I said it to Shamus. And the more we talked to her, like he knew her, but he didn't know her as well as I did. So anyway, we went over and back to, to Birmingham a few times to meet her and talk about it. And I met her sister and met her mom. She, Emma was with me obviously. And she was really, really, really the more she talked about it, she was the one getting more excited about it. And it was almost at the end. We kind of got God, we better, we better go ahead with this now
Speaker 1 00:39:05 Can't let her tone now.
Speaker 2 00:39:07 Yeah, exactly. So Irish, like, you know, we don't be rude. So, um, and
Speaker 1 00:39:16 You now have 28 children <laugh> she just keeps asking, she
Speaker 2 00:39:22 Keeps going, I'm sorry, stop, please stop having drinking. So yeah. Well it kind of was like that because the, we were in touch with the clinic about the idea and they said like, yeah, you know, send over her medical records to us will have a look at it. And they were very, very, very thorough. And they said, look, before we, as a clinic would agree that this is a good idea. We need to meet her. And we need her to come over here and go through our kind of tests. We could get them done remotely, but we prefer to meet and greet and make sure they were also taking the American perspective that the surrogate, even though she wasn't in the American system would need to be psychologically evaluated, medically evaluated, legally represented. Like they wanted to do it as they would. Um, if it was a, a us Sur.
Speaker 2 00:40:04 So she went over to the clinic, she loved it. She went over with her sister and they came back a couple of days later. And the clinic said, yeah, she is a really, really brilliant candidate. Like there's a really strong probability, you know, that she would be able to help you get, and she was more excited than ever about it. Then she came up with the notion that instead of having a baby for us, cuz she said, you know, I know you want to have a couple of kids. Why don't I carry twins V and I was really like, seriously, What planet do you exist on? <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:40:34 Good. So like she's taking it to a new level to say,
Speaker 2 00:40:37 Yeah, no seriously. Uh, it was hard like wow, Shava. And I both immediately said no to that idea because we felt we'd been in this process for a long time. We had never had any look, but she's a very persuasive girl and uh, eventually now, but as eventually, a couple of weeks of thinking about and talking about it, um, thinking about it from the perspective of the clinic and asking them for their input on the idea, they said, they couldn't see any reason why a twin pregnancy would carry on due risk above and beyond. What's associated with a twin pregnancy. We went for it and we transferred to embryos in San Diego back in January of 2018
Speaker 1 00:41:20 Sperm wise, what did you end up deciding
Speaker 2 00:41:23 The clinic made the decision for us because not only in the us, do they tell you, you know, the gender of your embryos, but they also ranked them in kind of, this is the best available embryo to you have. This is the second best available and best available being like likelihood of conceiving a healthy child. And it came back when they did the analysis of the six available embryos that, well, one of them was belonging to Shamus. And the next one, which was probably equally, uh, a good option was genetically related to me. And so, um, and one of them was a little boy. Uh, who's now called Sean. And one of them was a little girl who's now called Mary.
Speaker 1 00:42:01 Oh my God. I just love this story. And I actually I'm, I'm getting the shivers, thinking about the biological ties to both of you as well. Like it just couldn't have been more perfect and that person was in your life for a reason. And I know there you're describing your relationship and you're like, yeah, we were friends, but we were just friends and you know yeah. But it just shows you, I think I always say right as a profession in nursing is a calling and teaching mm-hmm <affirmative> and funnily, I it's a weird thing to equate, but I think surrogacy is a calling. It's one of those things that's either, you know, you want to do or you don't. And I think you found someone who obviously was very happy to experience the pregnancy and to enable you to have your family. And I am so glad that Sean and Mary are here. How old are they?
Speaker 2 00:43:02 They are heading, they'll be four in September. So just, uh, just gone three and a half.
Speaker 1 00:43:08 And actually, yeah, I'm just thinking about the timing of that as well. Cuz obviously, then you had to enjoy the pandemic with twin. So I'm going, are you all right? <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:43:19 It was actually fine cuz um, well, you know, as it was one of the better, uh, stories to come out at the pandemic, cuz like we were at the stage when the pandemic hit that they were just about a year and a half and their little world at that stage is very, very small. Yeah. They're very content to stay within their two K provided there's a couple of playground and within the 5k, so it was okay. And then the fact that they had each other in terms of like socialization, you know, it's almost enough to have one other little person in your life at that stage when you're that young. So it, I know a lot of people who had older kids who suffered a lot more than, than we did during the pandemic,
Speaker 1 00:43:53 I suppose just more on your unique position as two gay dads. How have you found the reaction of people, um, that you meet out and about as a gay dad to say, meeting someone in the playground, have you found Ireland a nice place to rare children as two gay dads?
Speaker 2 00:44:13 Yeah. Uh, well just to mention we have three kids of course. Cuz they uh,
Speaker 1 00:44:16 Okay. Yeah. Wait before. Yeah. Okay. Go back, go back. What <laugh> is this the same surrogate?
Speaker 2 00:44:23 Same surrogate.
Speaker 1 00:44:24 You're joking. Oh my goodness. She went back for more after the twins.
Speaker 2 00:44:28 Oh she get birthed the twins and it was her first time ever, you know, to be a surrogate. And when the twins were born, she was very hesitant around how she was going to feel, cuz she'd never experienced this before. So we, the twins were born in England, um, in a hospital in Birmingham and they were so supportive of us like way above. Like it was the, an NH hospital. There wasn't a private hospital, anything like that. But like basically they arranged it in such a way that as soon as the twins were born Shamus and I would become their carers within the hospital, she was given a private room in the hospital, in a public hospital to recover and she could stay as near to the twins as she wanted to or as far away from them as she wanted to. And for the first couple of days, she chose not to see the twins, not to hold them, not to touch them, albeit that Shamus and I were running up and down the stairs to her all the time and showing her pictures, which was what she wanted. But she just wanted to have that physical separation from them.
Speaker 1 00:45:25 Things like your milk coming in and you know, when it's not your child and you have milk coming in like that, that, that would be emotional. Yeah. Yeah. Um, not that you wouldn't have thought about that and yeah. You know, you you'd be in the head space, but I suppose look, all of those things have to have had been challenging for her initially. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:45:48 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and we all were, has always talked to her about what she needed and wanted and what, what could we do because evidently whatever she needed and wanted, we would do it for her. Um, so yeah, she left the hospital. Um, a couple of days after the twins were born, our little people needed to stay there for two or three days. Thankfully they were born 37 and a half weeks when they born
Speaker 1 00:46:12 Amazing. And
Speaker 2 00:46:14 They were born without any issues. Um, but anyway, she met them then once she was discharged from hospital and once the kids were discharged from hospital, we all met up and she was very comfortable, very quickly with seeing them, touching them, holding them, uh, and being around them. And she'd come to with, you know, exactly who she was in terms of their lives and that she had carried them. But that, you know, she didn't want any maternal relationship with them. She'd always say that, you know, her relationship was with us, not necessarily with the kids. Um,
Speaker 1 00:46:46 Yeah. Like it's important to highlight it biological, you know, she didn't have to worry about giving up a biological Thai because there wasn't one there. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:55 There wasn't one there. In fact like, I mean she's a completely different race and color to the kids <laugh> so that was another, so there were twins born with two daddies and they were born from a female who is completely different. Yeah. Color to them. What is Ireland like as a gay dad? So Ireland is actually a B to place to be a gay parent in, if you ignore the fact that there's all this legal minefield that you have to navigate on a societal level, it's a brilliant place to be.
Speaker 1 00:47:24 That
Speaker 2 00:47:24 Is
Speaker 1 00:47:24 Good to hear.
Speaker 2 00:47:26 I, I grew up in the, in the Midlands, on the border between temporary and Oly and I'll never forget the kids were back here in Dublin and a couple days. And obviously their aunties and uncles, uh, particularly their aunties down in the country wanted to meet them and see them. And we headed down there and I was thinking, oh, I wonder what it's like now, cuz you know, for me growing up there, I always assumed that I, I have a future as a gay man, certainly in the Midlands and probably not even in Ireland. So now going back down with my husband and <laugh>, first of all, the two kids was you're BR it was a bit of a leap of fate, but like we got to my sister's house, sat down, kids settled and suddenly the doorbell is ringing and it's an elderly labor with like a cake that she's baked and wants to get a squeeze, as they say off ins. And then the next doorbell rings and it's another neighbor. And then it's another neighbor and it's another neighbor. And literally nobody, nobody bated an eyelid at the fact that there was two daddies in the house mind and the kids and all they wanted was to know that these kids had arrived to celebrate their arrival and to be delighted with the fact that kids were so cherished and so loved.
Speaker 1 00:48:31 And that's the way it should be. It's really nice to hear that you feel supported and that your kids got a great, welcome, great country. Welcome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:48:41 <laugh> but like, uh, exactly real country, like it was, it was just gas, but like it's the same. Like we live here in Dublin now we live in north county, Dublin about 25 K outside the city. It's a small village filled with like typical can tiger 70 D houses, you know? And there's loads of kids around and winds are at the age now where they're able to venture outside a little bit. I go out with them though onto the green and like there's kids there on the green plane from like, you know, the age of 12 down to five kind of. And then our two are trying to keep up, put them, even though they're only three and a half, but like none of the kids bat an eyelid, something I said, right. Which so is one of you a foster parent. Like they're trying to get their kid out, trying to figure it out.
Speaker 2 00:49:21 They're trying, trying to figure it out. And then you give them like a quick someone and they go, okay, did you see my football? And like we do, we, we are aware that like maybe if a heterosexual couple had gone through Surro and then they go to the local shopping center, you know, they'll blend in. Nobody will know. But clearly when Shamus and I go to the local shopping center down in swords and we're wheeling around a triple buggy, like with three kids, age three and a half, and under people realize straight away what they're looking at. And we've never once been stared at. We've never once felt that we were the subject of nudges and wink Ireland. You is fantastic. As a, as a gay parent, literally have never had one incident where we felt, oh, um, people don't, don't approve of what we're doing here.
Speaker 1 00:50:00 I'm delighted to hear that. And I imagine, you know, there are a lot of parents out there or potential parents who maybe nervous about perception and that is such a positive story. And because
Speaker 2 00:50:11 I was one of those parents that
Speaker 1 00:50:12 Relief for
Speaker 2 00:50:13 Like, imagine if you brought your child into the world and then they were bullied for the rest of their life because of you and your husband. I mean, I think the marriage referendum taught Irish society. A lot of things, the marriage referendum forced pretty much every family in Ireland, whether or not they had a gay member of their family or a gay relative or a, you know, a gay neighbor. Every family had to sit down at some point around their kitchen table and have a chat about what they thought about gay relationships and what they thought about the potential for people of the same sex to get married to each other. And it, I think it maybe I'm overstating, but I think it, that was definitely a war watershed moment, whether or not it was enough. And there's still things that we need to talk about. That's probably true. But I definitely think it brought a lot of subjects that have been hidden away and been the subject of nudges and winks previously into the open space.
Speaker 1 00:50:59 Absolutely. And I think because of that, a lot of people, a lot of parents started to have conversations going well or thoughts to themselves. What if my kids are gay? Exactly. What do I want the world to be like for them, for them.
Speaker 2 00:51:12 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:51:13 You know? And I think that's become good thing to have thought about. And it allows it, it created, I suppose, a bit more empathy in everyone because everyone is like, yeah, okay, no, this actually affects everyone. And people I love around me and potentially my, so let's try and fix, fix the world a little bit, one step at a time. And as you said, there's a lot more that needs to be done. So you, you did another little girl.
Speaker 2 00:51:36 Yeah. Uh, when the Sur who helped us with the twins had given birthed them, she swore never again. Uh, and then we were chatting and one night and I genuinely don't really remember how the conversation happened cuz we were probably so tired from, from rearing Sean and Mary, all being that we were really lucky with them. Like there were, there were both little children who liked their beds and liked their food and kind of settled down. I know, I know hate.
Speaker 1 00:52:03 Yeah. Like I don't like parents who had sleep
Speaker 2 00:52:07 <laugh> yeah, we were those parents when the twins were born Shamus and I left the maternity hospital. I remember walking out to the car with them in their little carry cuts. And I thinking enjoy this moment, cuz this will never happen again. You'll never be going home from the hospital with your newborn baby. And we were both convinced for a couple of weeks that we would never, you know, we had our family and we had had our two kids and we were delighted. And then a couple of months later I was driving with Shamus somewhere and I just said to him, I won't have another baby <laugh> and he was kind of, he was open to the idea for sure. But probably we had always previously discussed it. No, we have our kids, we have a boy and a girl, each of us got to be a biologic parent, which was important to us beforehand.
Speaker 2 00:52:51 But now that they're here, it's totally relevant. Anyway, so yeah, he was kind of a bit, I'd say a bit surprised. I've never really had time to ask him, but um, yeah. Uh, so we decided, yeah, we'd love to do it again. And I think it was also in fairness who asked, who asked the surrogate would, would she consider doing it again? And she was really open to the idea straight away. She said, yeah. Um, wow, no problem. But then of course the global pandemic did hit and that did impact us big time because our embryos were in the United States. Yeah. And the United States had closed its borders to Europeans. Our Sur good was due to travel to the clinic to undergo the transfer in mid April, 2020. Oh. And then the United States, literally about three weeks before the transfer was due to take place Donald Trump and was Saturday afternoon, I'll ever forget it came on whatever CNN and opened that conversation saying that he was banning Europeans from entering the United States. And we were like,
Speaker 1 00:53:50 When you think of,
Speaker 2 00:53:52 Of all the things we had done,
Speaker 1 00:53:54 What literally, what other barrier could you have put in front of you? You had found a surrogate like so many challenges and such a big journey. What happened then?
Speaker 2 00:54:03 So we waited and waited. We just saw obviously that things were getting worse rather than getting better around the world. And in California it was getting way worse. The numbers were going through the roof. So we thought about it, right. If Mohamed will not come to the mountain or whatever, let's bring the mountain to Moham. So we arranged, and I didn't know there was such a company, but there is a company would that actually transfer IVF components from clinic to clinic around the world. Okay. So we found a company and it's run actually by an Irish couple based in France.
Speaker 1 00:54:35 And of course it is
Speaker 2 00:54:37 A girl from math Andry <laugh> and uh, we contacted them and they agreed that they would move the, the embryos out of the clinic in California. But of course you can't just move embryos around the world. It's not, it's not as easy as that. So we had to find somewhere to that would accept them. We couldn't bring them to Ireland because of the lack of legislation. We couldn't bring them to the UK because we knew the gender of the embryos and that's prohibited under UK law because okay. You, they don't want people engaging in sex selection. Yeah. Uh, and I said to 'em like, we're not going to engage in sex selection. We are going to use this embryo because it's the best
Speaker 1 00:55:17 Embryo, the most viable embryo. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:55:19 So, um, anyway, where did we send up sending the embryos, but to a clinic in Northern Cyprus,
Speaker 1 00:55:25 Of course you did. It's the logic choice,
Speaker 2 00:55:28 What as you do <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:55:30 And what, okay. Right. So,
Speaker 2 00:55:34 So again, like you're D you're dealing with the fact that lots of locations in the world will not accept, uh, surrogacy as a concept Northern CYS does, they don't necessarily say that they're helping a gay or straight couple in Northern Cyprus. They just say that we're transferring an embryo into a female, uh, wound. Uh, so that's the way they looked at it on under their legal system. Yeah. So the surrogate then traveled from her hometown in Birmingham to Northern Cyprus in the middle of a pandemic, which was really difficult because they had very, very strict law. They didn't have COVID necessary within Northern Cypress and they did everything to keep it out of the borders. So anyway, she went to Northern Cypress, had to do all the PCR tests before leaving PCR tests on arrival. And then the clinic had, you know, got some special exemption from the government that they could pick her up from the hotel, bring her to the clinic, do the transfer, then send her back to the hotel, uh, and then bring her back the next day to make sure she was okay medically. And anyway, she flew home and I woke up in the middle of the night. I checked my phone and she said, I'm really sorry for doing this cuz I know I promised I wouldn't do a home pregnancy test, but I did. And I'm pregnant. <laugh> I like, I forgave you go on. Then
Speaker 1 00:56:48 I just love this girl. Right. Because she texted go, Hey, I'll be your surrogate. And I was like, Hey, you're having a baby <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:56:54 Yeah, yeah. Good for you. So Shamus was asleep beside me in the bed and I thought, oh, I just need a minute to digest all this. And I, I, I let him sleep. I dunno why I did. I kept it to myself for about three or four hours. And then, um, he woke up the next morning and we were chatting in bed and I said, oh, check your messages there. Cuz it was in the group WhatsApp, you know, and he opened up his phone and there, he saw it as well. So Anne was on the way,
Speaker 1 00:57:20 Oh my goodness. And your surrogate is a complete legend by the way, like as if there wasn't a much enough red tape then, you know, add an, a gazillion PCR tests into
Speaker 2 00:57:33 It. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. She had to do most of the, the scans and all that in the, in the local hospital in Birmingham, again, um, on her own, um, I mean her partner went along with her, but like, yeah, it was a really tough time for her. She was, and she'll always say that she was carrying this or the two pregnancies having already done her own two pregnancies, but that she felt way more pressure for these pregnancies cuz you know, it was somebody else's child and yeah. Um, yeah, not that we were putting pressure on her, but she just had this internal pressure. So yeah. Um, I Anne arrived in June of last year.
Speaker 1 00:58:06 Amazing. So Anne was born in the UK in UK and this will apply for the three kids. I can't believe we've ended up three children in terms of Irish law or the surrogate. Would've been the birth mom as recognized by the Irish legislative system. If your surrogate had been married mm-hmm <affirmative> am I correct in saying that her husband would've been the second legal parent,
Speaker 2 00:58:34 Correct? Yep.
Speaker 1 00:58:35 <laugh> like not being funny, but he said nothing to do with it. Right. That's that's innate wrongness. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:58:42 Yeah. He's getting all that credit for doing
Speaker 1 00:58:43 I'm like what did you do? What I mean like right. So the three children at different stages obviously came home and biological tie is to,
Speaker 2 00:58:54 So we have three kids. Shamus is the biological father of Sean. Okay. One of the twins, I'm the biological father of Mary, the other one of the twins. Okay. And then Anne is biologically related to Shamus.
Speaker 1 00:59:06 Okay. So your, their birth certs then at that point, after you had applied for a declaration of parentage, um, respectively for your own biological tied children, you were listed as parents for those children. And then presumably that's the case now for Anne, she obviously hasn't been in the house for two years. So you can't apply for guardianship
Speaker 2 00:59:33 Can't exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:59:34 So at the moment you've no legal type, no legal
Speaker 2 00:59:37 Connection to her whatsoever. You and I have the same legal connection to her. Yeah. Reality. As far as I is concerned,
Speaker 1 00:59:43 Which is go bigger. And I discussed this with the two MAs the shortcomings in guardianship versus even when you get guardianship after two years versus parentage
Speaker 2 00:59:52 Prep prize. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:59:53 Like, no, it's no good. Right. We're not having it. So, but that's the way it stands. So you are presumably out guardian to Sean mm-hmm <affirmative> so you can do all the medical things, but at the moment you need Shamus to consent for any medical, um, requirements for Anne and obviously the implications then to speak horribly. But in terms of the case of death or one or other you, the tax implications, even in inheriting tax everything and to have your family in jeopardy in limb. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is horrendous. So I think the whole point of all of this conversation is that the assisted human reproduction bill is coming in. And the coalition really what you are looking for in essence is for surrogacy to be, be addressed, not ignored because there's no point in sticking our heads in the sand because it's clearly already happening. Anyone
Speaker 2 01:00:49 It's happened at least three times,
Speaker 1 01:00:50 At least three times, they can go to your house for proof. So what are we doing really achieving by not recognizing something regardless of what your views are. Right? Exactly. Surely it's in the best interest, even if you don't agree with assist a human reproduction in any way, shape or form, or even if you don't agree with surrogacy, is it in the interest of the intended parents, the biological parents, the surrogate, anyone like for it not to have safeguards in place and frameworks that everyone can work to. If we have some bit of control over it in Ireland and legal framework, we can protect people and people will be able to explore their options in Ireland rather than having maybe to go abroad. And I appreciate that people for various reasons may still end up going abroad mm-hmm <affirmative>, but so that their chill can be legally connected to their actual two parents. Exactly. And it's not enough to bring in this bill, which obviously is still gonna take a long time to come in and looking at the, the last piece of legislation they brought in, there was five years between it being
Speaker 2 01:02:00 Or enacted it. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 01:02:01 And also it needs to be retrospective because you cannot leave a cohort parents like yourselves mm-hmm <affirmative> out. And I suppose that's, that's the main message really isn't it
Speaker 2 01:02:12 Exactly like, and the other aspect, one other aspect is like the legislation as it Mo as it stands at the moment, or the lack of legislation puts a surrogate in a really vulnerable position as well, because she is in the eyes of the state. Not only is she the legal mother, but with the way the Irish constitution works, she's actually the primary parent, even with, you know, okay. The declaration of parentage somehow somewhat dissolves that. But like the state is still expecting her to play a role in the children's lives. And like for her, let's say something happened in her family and she was to be deceased. Our kids could potentially, if they wanted to go over to the UK and say, actually, no, we've a claim in her estate as well. Good.
Speaker 1 01:02:54 I didn't think about that. That's her end. Yes.
Speaker 2 01:02:56 So like it it's it's, you know, the, the, those who are against it probably take the perspective. Well, you know, it, um, it exploits, sorry to say exploits, sorry. Goodson leaves them in a vulnerable position while not legislating for it actually leaves them in a way more vulnerable position and also opens up the possibility for exploitation. Whereas if everything is above board and covered off with legal documentation and medical support, et cetera, et cetera, then you're minimizing the opportunity for exploitation of any party.
Speaker 1 01:03:23 And these children already exist. Okay. They're here,
Speaker 2 01:03:26 They're upstairs asleep.
Speaker 1 01:03:27 Thank God.
Speaker 2 01:03:29 <laugh> exactly.
Speaker 1 01:03:30 And there are, I'm sure many other children in the same boat with many different parents of all genders, um, and people are gonna continue to do it because as we said earlier, the human spirit is pretty strong. Yes. Yeah. And when you want to have a baby, you would move the ends of the world to have, you know, to have one. So we spoke about everyone's rights there. And I suppose I'm just gonna finish on this, the most thing in my view, but it all comes down to obviously human rights and rights for children. So exactly by not protecting any of the stakeholders involved here, which seems a crude word to call parents surrogates and everything. We're not protecting our children are most vulnerable who really, and truly are loved and being nourished in a secure, warm, loving environment, which is the best thing for them. But by ignoring them legally, we're putting them in a very vulnerable position.
Speaker 2 01:04:32 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The reality is like even when the declaration of parentage is, is created, if that legal parent was then to die, it leaves the child in the Irish state, in our case with no legal parent, um, as in the other legal parent is in the UK. Uh, and then all they have here in Ireland is a garden looking after them.
Speaker 1 01:04:54 And I, I find it offensive for you say to refer to yourself as all they have here is a garden. Like that's upsetting when it's your child. You've yeah. Fed minded, your stay at home dad. So it's so wrong on so many levels. Yeah. Like for you, for the child, for the surrogate who mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, was never the intended parent.
Speaker 2 01:05:15 Yeah. I'd love to be the legal parent of my three children. Yeah. Not just one of them, but what I really want to know is that no matter what happens to their parents, that those children will be as protected as the family who live next door to us. Cuz right now they're not, they're treated differently. They're viewed differently. They don't have the same rights if people are, are, are on board with idea, please let a local politician know because one of the reasons why this might take so long and is taking so long is because the politicians to be fair are very busy people and they're dealing with lots of issues and they don't maybe think that this is as important because it doesn't affect as a huge number of people. You know, now this just, just doesn't affect gay men. It affects heterosexual couples who have children do surrogacy, who are probably a bigger group. So yeah, contact a local politician and tell 'em, you've heard about this and you don't think it's good enough nowadays for, for kids to be treated this way, where they're not allowed to have a relation, a legal relationship with the people who love them and care for them on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 01:06:13 It's been an absolute pleasure. And I'm very, very grateful for your time.
Speaker 2 01:06:17 You know, there is that whole expression that takes a village to raise a child or in our case, who is a pretty big village spread all over the world and like the, to get them here onto this planet was, uh, such a battle. And if I can help somebody else by just telling the story, I'm delighted.
