Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:09 Hello, and welcome to the wonder Baba podcast. My name is Sheena Mitchell. I'm a pharmacist in mom of three. I'm here to chat all about child and family health. I combine healthcare and practical advice to help you on your parenting journey. I really hope you enjoy the
Speaker 2 00:00:26 Show.
Speaker 1 00:00:27 In this episode, I chat to Karen and Emma AKA the two Mamies. They chat to me all about their fertility journey and what it's been like adjusting to life with Amelia. Who's now three, we discuss the legal considerations, the practical issues, and a whole lot more. I really hope you find this episode useful. I certainly found it extremely interesting and I learned an awful lot. That'll stay with me and benefit it so much from talking to the girls. And I'll always be grateful for having the opportunity to have this chat. This podcast
Speaker 2 00:01:08 Is proudly sponsored by Medicare fem sense Ireland's newest and most innovative ovulation tracking solution. The Medicare fem sense smart temperature patch is comfortable and discrete and is worn under your arm during your fertile window to measure and confirm ovulation women have reported a 93% success rate in detecting ovulation with over 10,000. Pregnan already recorded coming soon in a pharmacy near you visit Fleming medical.ie/fm sense for more details.
Speaker 1 00:01:44 So I just wanted to give huge thanks to the two Mamies Karen and Emma for joining me today on the wonder Baba podcast, just to talk all about fertility and also just in general, raring a child in the same sex relationship. And I was just actually, just before I pressed record there, I was explaining to the girls that in all of my research for a general fertility episode, that's coming up, I had pretty much the, I suppose, the content written through listening to webinars and kind of researching fertility info, uh, for parents. And it was only at the very end that I just sent, oh, this is literally, this only applies to heterosexual couples. And I was kind of shocked that I had gotten the whole way through. And it took me that long to realize, and I suppose it, it, it made me realize that's such a huge barrier for a same sex couple in general, cuz all of the information is really directed towards hetero couples.
Speaker 1 00:02:55 Like unless you go looking first. Um, so I'm really, really grateful for you guys to come on to chat because I think the more chatting that we do will support, you know, other couples who are coming along and are considering starting a family and wondering from basic things like where do you even start to look for information? Because obviously there's there bigger challenges to the same sex couples than hetero couples in getting pregnant in the first place or to becoming a parent. So really I, I think yeah, finding that information out, learning about the legalities, because since this all occurred to me and have to say I'm a woman married to a man and even though I'm a pharmacist and have lots of friends who are in same sex relationships, I don't think I ever actually really, really thought about how difficult it was to start that.
Speaker 1 00:03:57 So I think, yeah, it, it would just be brilliant to talk a bit about that. But before we start talking about the legalities and when I started looking for the legalities, there's a lots going on at the moment, um, which is exciting and I hope things are going in the right way, but time, I suppose the next few months even will help because the new committee, I can't remember what it's called. Um, maybe assisted fertility, you know, are obviously doing their three months review, which started in January. So hopefully they'll see that the barriers are not fair, but I suppose first of all, I just wanted to ask you to a little bit about yourself. So, uh, where you're from, how you grew up, what kind of people you are and how you met all of that. I'm so nosy
Speaker 3 00:04:45 <laugh> um, well we're together 10 years. Yeah. And we met 10 years ago. St Patrick's weekend. Okay. Um, I met in person 10 years ago. St. Patrick's weekend. We met online as you know, every modern relationship these days.
Speaker 1 00:05:02 Yep.
Speaker 3 00:05:03 Um, and I'm so I'm Karen, by the way. Um, I'm from Dublin and Emma is from <inaudible>. So our path's probably unlikely to cross so through the internet. Um, and yeah, kind of, we got serious pretty quickly. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and we'd so we met in March, we'd moved in together by October. I dragged her up to the big smoke. Was
Speaker 1 00:05:38 There Dublin or enough fair enough.
Speaker 3 00:05:46 Um, but we knew quite, quite early on, like we wanted to start family. Um, but like it was down the road, so we didn't ever consider it to quite far in, well, I mean is three now. So before that I think, yeah, I insisted that we'd be married <laugh> before we have kids, uh, not for any traditional reason or anything, but just for, for legal, for yeah. Legal reasons. Um, because I, well, we decided that I would, I would carry, so that being the case, I'd be, I'm a media's birth mother and related to her by genetically and Karen wouldn't be, so I was like, we'd have that extra protection if we were married well, so we thought this is what we thought at time complicated. It was a lot more complicated. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:06:36 Yeah. Okay. And we will, I'm gonna dig deep on that in a minute and your heads will be wrecked and I, yeah, but <laugh> okay. Before we get to that, when did the proposal happen and tell me the wedding.
Speaker 3 00:06:51 So the yes. Quality was 2015, right? Yeah. May, 2015. Yeah. I should know that. Yes. Um, so that was May, 2015 and everyone was expecting March immediately. I waited till Christmas. Um, and then I proposed in Christmas on Steven Steven Day. Yeah. Um, and not want to, you know, take things slowly. We had our wedding won by January and then we won our wedding. <laugh> married in August.
Speaker 1 00:07:26 Wow.
Speaker 3 00:07:27 Yeah. Yeah. So very lucky
Speaker 1 00:07:30 Waited long enough at that stage to be fair.
Speaker 3 00:07:33 I know, I know. Sure. I remember just after I proposed Emma's dad said to me, you never even asked my permission. I asked the whole country's permission. I don't
Speaker 1 00:07:48 Now that's, that's a much better comeback than I've ever heard before. I've got the strength of the nation behind me. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:07:56 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:07:57 And yeah. I suppose speaking about your families, have they always been supportive or how what's the journey been like between coming out and, you know, finding each other?
Speaker 3 00:08:10 Yeah. So, um, I like at start, so I would have come out probably when I was about 19 or twenties. That's a far while ago now. Um, and a big shock to the families and all the rest. But like once the shock had passed, that was grand. They were all fairly accepting soon after who my sister also come out as a lesbian. So
Speaker 1 00:08:34 Reason it made it easier for her <laugh> I'm
Speaker 3 00:08:37 Telling. And then like when they met Emma, they just absolutely loved her. I think she's like a third daughter at this point. <laugh> um, but yeah, I didn't really have a tough time, like in circle of friends or anything like that. Um, yeah. Grant,
Speaker 1 00:08:57 But okay. And, um, Emma, was it, was it easy for you? Um,
Speaker 3 00:09:01 I mean, I didn't until I was 25. So it took me that bit longer to be brave enough to come out, I guess. Um, and it was a big shock for my family. They didn't see it coming, I guess. <laugh> um, but they've been fine with it. Absolutely fine. And Karen was my first girlfriend actually the first one I brought home <laugh> yeah. We ended up getting married, so yeah, they, they love her too. And I think they like her burden, then they like me to be honest. So, so yeah, they, yeah, their families, the families are great and they, they love each other and yeah, it's, it's been
Speaker 1 00:09:34 Well very gladly, you know, I think families in general, in Ireland, people have, I think most people wouldn't have any issue and would see the marriage of their child has been happy. But I imagine coming out, you can't see that, like, you know, you can't, maybe, maybe you don't have the confidence. And, but I think, I assume nowadays, you know, it is probably better to give your friends and family the benefit, you know, of, of trusting that they will respond well, cuz, and I know I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, but I I'd say it's rare that it changes anything really. Cause all you want being a parent myself, like all you want is for them to be happy. Like what does happiness look like? It looks like having love in your life and that's really, that's really all you want for them. Yeah. Okay. So you had the very speedy wedding, which is
Speaker 3 00:10:33 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:10:34 Understandable.
Speaker 3 00:10:35 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:10:36 And had you at that stage, obviously you were saying you had already talked about having a family and becoming parents. So was it something that you had were fully aware of? Well, obviously you were saying there that you, you know, assumed being legally married would give extra legal stance, um, for you both as parents. So obviously you had to learn that that isn't necessarily the case. And how, at that point did you go about doing your research and where is a good place for new same sex couples who want to start family to look and to seek that kind of information and support?
Speaker 3 00:11:21 Yeah. Um, well we definitely came from an extremely naive place. Yeah. We, we had <laugh> um, we didn't have any of our peers. No that had children any, sorry, any same sex, um, friends or anyone that we knew that had children. Um, and if they did, they were generally actually conceived through a straight relationship and then had progressed on same sex. And so we started just, you know, Google the trustee place to get all of your information. And again, it was just so you're bombard for information and none of it is coming from a reputable source as such. So we went through several different avenues. Um, initially when we were just thinking about having kids, I had tried emailing several different fertility clinics. This was actually pre like there was only, I think, claim of me and then the rotunda IVF. So in the rotunda hospital.
Speaker 3 00:12:27 Okay. I think there were the main clinics, the, the likes, the beacon and stuff hadn't been established yet. Um, and then, so I looked at fertility clinics abroad as well. Um, so when I contacted there were Tonda IVF. Now I, I don't know if this is still the case. It might not be. Um, but at the time they said they do not treat same sex couples. And I don't know, is that just that they didn't have a partnership with, um, like a sperm clinic? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Where sperm bank. I had emailed clinics in Spain and PR and Poland, prag and Poland do not want and not a single thing to do too. If you're a same sex, couple didn't know what it's, I didn't get a positive response from them. Okay. Um, and then Spain, I think were relatively helpful.
Speaker 3 00:13:19 Um, again, that was pre the likes of the children, family relationships act 2015. Um, so there was no regulations whatsoever regards to same sex couples conceiving. And then again, we did get around to like actually properly setting the wheels motion. We looked around for a bit more information at the, the place we did get information where Facebook groups. Yeah. Um, <affirmative> um, yeah, fertility clinics. It was still relatively new to a lot of them. So they didn't have a lot of information. That's not the case. Now I know that in particular Sims and fertil fertility therapy out in Kirk mines are really, really great for same sex. I can't speak for thes cause we've never worked with them, but I know friends that have gone to the beacon and to reprimand again have been great. Okay. So it's just with time they've advanced with their, their market.
Speaker 3 00:14:17 Um, but yeah, those just finding that information was really tough at the start. Um, it's definitely much more available now. Um, particularly with the likes of equality for children and big names like Renee V me, she's such a wealth of information and really like the social media side of things. So I know for me, I would have my Instagram page to MAMs. I've had so many people contact me with how do you get started? Um, what do I do? What's the right route. Now I can only stand, I can only speak for the route that we went and I can point them to whoever else. So I know like the likes of, um, um, reciprocal IVF is where you would donate eggs to your partner and your partner would, um, carry the embryo term. That's more regulated for, and it's more catered for now up until a couple years ago, only in the last year or so. Yeah. Maybe two years ago, you couldn't do that Ireland at all. No.
Speaker 1 00:15:21 So I suppose just to explain to people, so in 2015 that children and family relationships act came in and
Speaker 3 00:15:31 No, no, no. It was written in 2015, which is the basis that we said we would be safe to conceive a child that would be protected legally. Right. Um, that bill was not enacted until July 20, 25 years to be enacted. And there were so many families left in the dark, not protected legally you're not protected in the case of, so with Emma having given birth, she was the only parent with any legal rights, but also with any kind of, um, medical say. So, so had there been anything like an accident where Amelia and Emma had gotten into and had Emma not been able to make a decision? I would not be the person that would go to my, my mother would be the next person the next, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:23 Where does, and sorry, I want to start this sentence by saying guardianship is not parental rights and there's no, and it's no substitute for so many reasons other than the fact that you want to be a parent to your own child and have the same legal rights, but even on a practical level, things like inheritance, um, rights. And also you're only deemed illegal guardian until that child is 18. At which point you're no longer legally, you know, related to that child. You're a stranger. And I just like, obviously before that act, which obviously I was unaware, it took five years to come in before that act was there possibility to get guardianship.
Speaker 3 00:17:10 Yeah. So you had to live with the child for two years being their guardian before you could become their legal guardian.
Speaker 1 00:17:18 Okay. Marriage didn't really do
Speaker 3 00:17:22 Anything. No. Nothing, no, no, no. So we had to go and apply for Amelia's birth certificate and you pay for the privilege of, they give you a birth cert and I was the only name on it and it was just heartbreaking going pay their muddy for this thing that I didn't want this piece of paper that meant nothing and just blank. I was just a single parent.
Speaker 1 00:17:41 Like I, I can't
Speaker 3 00:17:43 Horrible.
Speaker 1 00:17:44 Yeah. And, and for both of you, cause no,
Speaker 3 00:17:46 Currently horrific. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:48 Like, like what a punch in the stomach. Like I can't imagine that feeling like you're bringing this child into the world together absolutely. To have one person told that they're a legal stranger in effect. Yeah. And like it's, it seems in a way obviously look immediately would know that she is two mammies without any movement <laugh> in for support it's it is it's offense really is what it comes down to and difficult. So like this is, I suppose, like it's, it's just thinking about this even I'm I get upset thinking about that. And I just, yeah, I can't imagine how difficult that was on the per ye before we move on. And this is a very personal question in terms, obviously, so Emma, you know, your egg was used and you carried Amelia in terms of sperm donor. How did that work? I know. And this is from very, I suppose, limited research that there's different types of donors.
Speaker 1 00:18:50 Obviously you can have a traceable donor who can, won't be identified to the parents at the time, but the child at the age of 18 has the right to get that information. And then in terms of known donors, so someone that you've probably sought yourself, it's different you've partner known donors. Um, but that only really relates to if the sperm donor is actually going to be the parent themselves. And then non-partner known donors where that donor is very clear that they're not gonna be the parent. So how, how as a lesbian couple how'd you go about going, right. We need sperm. Where do we fund it? Like, I can't imagine going, Hmm it's it's hard. Like what, what did you do?
Speaker 3 00:19:42 So we initially we were going to go back when we started going through what we were like, deciding what we were going to do. Um, it was still legal for you to import your own sperm directly from the Cryobank in Denmark. And you could do a home insemination.
Speaker 1 00:20:00 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:20:01 Um, the, we didn't go that route in the end because it was actually just logistics. Didn't work out for us. You needed to have it delivered during daytime hours. And Neith of us were going to be here and it was going delivered was a, it was like going to be different, a quiet time. Then you have to be there to receive it. And we're like, we can't get it delivered to our workplace. So we insane. <laugh> um, much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:28 It's like if you've been doing a lot of online shopping, you know, all your random Amazon and next parcels coming to work, I'm like, no, that's just the sperm. That's just the first mind that that's mine
Speaker 3 00:20:37 <laugh>. So that was the reason we ended up going with the, the clinic really, because we had known people that had done home insemination or also had done known donors or like friends or whoever that we're willing to either be a participant or not participant, um, as a sidebar. That is a route that is not, uh, recognized under Irish law. Yeah. That's not, if you have gone that route, the second parent will never get the legal recognition. So in order for your child to be, um, have two same sex partners named as their parents, they have to have been conceived in an Irish clinic with a known donor as well, known donor. I mean the one that can be identified by the child once they turn 18, but most be unknown to the parents at time of conception.
Speaker 1 00:21:32 Oh, wow. Okay. So very strange. So you can go to and sorry, a naive question. So where are the sperm banks in Ireland or are they affiliated right? Not no. So you have to both be recognized as legal parents. You have to use basically a traceable donor. So you cannot use, because I did, um, you know, I was chatting to a friend who, two friends who obviously are two girls, so in the same sex relationship and they ended up using a brother's sperm with the other partners egg.
Speaker 3 00:22:16 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:17 So I suppose what we're saying there is because they wanted to include, you know, uh, an emotional and biological bond between the two parents that's then impossible for them to actually become two parents. That's.
Speaker 3 00:22:33 Now I don't know where they covered those after, uh, the CF or a 2015 was eventually enacted in July, 2020. Um, there was basically, they gave like a window where he could kind of appeal it. So everybody that had to get the birth reregistered. So we were included in that, even though we met all of the criteria set out in it, um, we had to go to court and get a judge to say, yes, you're allowed to be her parent. And even if you didn't meet the criteria, you could still go if your child was conceived before may 20, 20, I think. Yeah. Something like that. Um, so there was a window where they wouldn't punish you for things that happened prior to that.
Speaker 1 00:23:21 So cause you used a traceable donor through an Irish clinic and gave birth in Ireland. Yeah. You are both legal parents of Amelia. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:23:33 It's very specific. It's a very small amount of people in Ireland that need that criteria. So there's still lots and lots of problems. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:41 Yeah. And I can't, you know, it's not good
Speaker 3 00:23:43 Enough. It's not good
Speaker 1 00:23:44 Enough. It's, it's a conversation than the one we're having today, but the impact that has on surrogacy. Yeah, absolutely hetero and same sex corporal.
Speaker 3 00:23:52 Absolutely. And also for children that were conceived prior to this information being available that subsequently the parents want to have siblings. Um, so there's friends of ours that had to conceive through a Spanish clinic, I think, um, because they need to get an embryo donor as opposed to a sperm donor. Okay. Embryo donation is currently not leading around. I think if they want to have a sibling for that child, either the sibling cannot be genetically related to that other child or the sibling will never be legally linked to the second parent. God. So it's a decision that those parents like are really struggling with because how do you decide, do you know, cuz with an embryo donation, obviously still your child and still you've carried, you raise them, blah, blah, blah. But they're not genetically linked to the parent. So they want to give a genetic link to the sibling. But if they do that, they won't have legal recognition to the second.
Speaker 1 00:25:05 That's just mind blowing. And for every couple, it's just like you said, there are this very small catchment of people who are covered with legal rights to parents in Ireland. And so any couple, I suppose, who are starting their journey now, the information's gonna be different for everyone. And so that just makes it less transparent and more difficult. I read an amazing paper over the last few days and I think it would be a really, really useful place for new couples to start. So it's the assisted human reproduction coalition paper. Um, and obviously that's as a result of multiple L G B T groups coming together. And you mentioned earlier equality for children. Exactly. God like their website is just a wealth of information as well. And I love looking at their social media because I'm like, like as you said, Rene, and everyone involved like such positive, positive people.
Speaker 1 00:26:16 And I think that is probably a really good place for people to star maybe. Yeah. But I think what I liked about that paper is that it actually just breaks down in Lemon's terms. You can find where you fit in, in the legal framework in Ireland and you can find out the different types of fertility treatment. There are cuz obviously there's ICI. So intra dissemination, which in essence of the doesn't need a medical practitioner to complete and then IUI. So Rine insemination, where the sperm is injected into the uterus, um, that has to happen in fertility clinics in Ireland and then IVF as well, which a lot of people will be aware of where eggs are retrieved and then fertilized with the sperm, obviously outside, um, of the body and then the embryos transferred back into the womb. And you touched off there, sorry. And I'm only listing these, just, just increase awareness to people to know the journey and the, like the challenge that is in front of a same sex.
Speaker 1 00:27:22 Couple trying to pull my parent, trying to look at all of this and figure it out. But there, you mentioned the reciprocal IVF where obviously, you know, one person's egg is ized outside the body with donor sperm and then the embryo is transferred into the other partner. And I can see why people, you know, you can kind of see the merits of all of those different things. And I imagine like that, like with the situation, the emotional effect and impact is gonna be very different because like, I dunno, is it a thing where you can feel very isolated from the process if you're not carrying the baby or I'm sure this like, look, this is as personal as anything because I'm sure some people are quite happy for their partner to be pregnant, um, and carry the child. And obviously it doesn't affect your parental love in any way, shape or form and see that with my own husband.
Speaker 1 00:28:17 Like <laugh>, he, he was quite glad not to have to do the baby caring. Can I tell you <laugh> but look, however, however your baby comes into this world, like parenting is not about that journey. Parenting is about the relationship you have with your child and the love. And I love that expression. Love is love God. I'm saying the word love and awful lot, but I just don't think that there can be anything better for a child than to grow up secure and loved and confident. And you know, the two parents that a child has as a result of same sex, couple coming together deciding to parent has to be the most wanted child ever because they have invested so much of their life and so much determination and so much emotional strength to get through the journey to receive or to have their baby that not being funny, like slam dunks on the hetero efforts.
Speaker 1 00:29:21 Cause <laugh>, I mean, doesn't take much forever hetero. So I just, I think to want a child that much, I, I it's, it's just, I, I dunno, I think that's the biggest sign of love. And for me that is a very lucky child and that's one that is gonna grow up confident and secure. And I just, yeah, I think it really shouldn't be this hard, but I was looking as well, I suppose that information and it's kind of tricky for the two dads, like where does, they're kind of left out of the loop a lot. I was reading about even the surrogay how the surrogate who obviously carries the baby, um, even if it's a donor egg and a donor sperm. So it's nothing actually to biologically to do with the donor. The donor is happy to just carry the child, but once the child is born, legally, that child is the donor and their husbands. If they have one <laugh>, he's got no relevance at all. I'm just saying like, how is that possible?
Speaker 3 00:30:23 It's bizarre. And I, I understand Irish laws were formed prior to any of this, even, you know, existing. Um, but just that the government are not very quick to act on the requirements, even with the C F a in 2015. Um, the reason it was so delayed was because there was so many kind of question marks over you couldn't cover for every eventuality and you never can, like, I'm sure once the assisted human reproduction bill, whenever it does come in, given based on the previous timelines, I'm not anticipating it's going to be quick, but like that will come in and everyone will be delighted, but I'm sure something else will happen further on where they've forgotten about some other combination where it's gonna leave somebody else out. And listen, we say like, then you're not covered legally there's. And the likes of, you know, if, if someone was in an accident and you know, a doctor could deny you like the guardianship title or whatever, um, most people won't do that. Like if it was a case that I wasn't legally recognized as media's parent and had immediate, had Emma passed away, Amelia would've automatically gone to Emma's parents, but Emma's parents are never going to do that to me, you know? Yeah. Are most doctors are not going to deny either right. To your own child. It's just about the, like the recognition more so than anything else. Like, like you said, like you, you fight really hard to have this child and then for the government just be like, eh,
Speaker 1 00:32:08 And I suppose it's that kind of, it's a security thing as well, because yeah, of
Speaker 3 00:32:13 Course,
Speaker 1 00:32:14 Like while, okay. Obviously, you know, you two have really good relationships with your family. Like every couple, I imagine there's some that don't and just don't want that weight on their shoulders of thinking. Well, what if, you know, and I dunno, it's just, it's a complication that shouldn't exist and yeah, it's not fair to put that stress on any couple, whether it forms a very small part of stress due to, obviously they know that they're gonna have their child at the end of the day, but you know, obviously it's a bigger stress if maybe relationships are bad and they, they just are worried about what's actually gonna happen. You'd like security and knowledge. That it's gonna be simple because especially in that situation, like grief is enough to deal with. You know, you don't want to be worried about anything else, I suppose. And it's lovely to hear you say though, that it isn't really as big as a problem as people think because common sense prevails and everyone, you know, would know, and obviously, look, you are Amelia's legal parent, but everyone would know, even if you weren't, everyone would know that you're her parent and you'd be treated that way.
Speaker 1 00:33:20 And I suppose that brings me on to a question of how do you find society now in understanding non-traditional family types based on, you know, having one man, one woman and children, like, are society ready? Are they like, like they should have been ready years ago, but
Speaker 3 00:33:42 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:33:43 Is it, is Ireland an easy place to have same sex family now?
Speaker 3 00:33:48 And do you know, it's actually quite hard to answer mainly because of COVID feel like we haven't really been exposed to it too much yet. So, um, Emma stays at home with a media, so she, she's not in any kind of childcare. Um, she's not starting place school until September. And a lot of our friends are same sex couples. And with that, so a lot of Amelia's friends have two Mamies or, you know, it's just to her, it seems completely normal. And to any groups that she's ever in, it's completely normal. So I haven't come across kind of situations that people haven't been accepting of it. I have no doubt that at some point we will,
Speaker 1 00:34:36 I think they're, what'll be useful. And this is coming from a really weird place because I was actually just doing a bit of thought and research for chat. I'm having next week about grief and helping children with grief. And one thing that came up was the importance of giving children, the language for explaining their loss in school. So say if someone's dad died and their school friends are children, so they're very simple beings and they could be like the child going, oh, and you know, where's your mommy or where's your daddy, or, you know, and, and a child needs to be able to answer and say, no, like, so obviously, sorry, this is a totally different situation, but I suppose what I'm trying to get back to is that the language, having your child confident, which obviously, you know, a happy loafed child is gonna know their situation is normal, but they need to be, I suppose, have the language who go into school and not be bothered if they meet people who maybe don't have the same outlook, you know, because that, and that it's har it's a horrible thought. And I, I have hopes for Ireland and, you know, you kind of go, shouldn't be a problem, but it's very different in urban versus rural areas as well, you know? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:35:59 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:36:00 Um, I'm from Ross common, right? Which <laugh> is widely known as the one county that voted
Speaker 3 00:36:09 Figured
Speaker 1 00:36:10 It's better. I bring it up than actually I, in my experience, that's not reflective of the attitudes in Ross, common on, I still am proud to be a Rossi, but I <laugh>. I suppose what I'm saying is, you know, there's a course gonna be times where Amelia is gonna have to answer no are naive or ignorant is the word, but not in the mean sense in the actual true meaning of the word ignorant. Some children are gonna grow up, you know, and just not have any same sex people in their life and are literally just gonna be unaware. So I, and that's actually, that's an interesting thing, cuz I think there's a lot of things parents who are in annoy way, like who are happy to support, same sex couples, but just maybe don't have any friends that are same sex couples. Yeah. Like there's things that they can do to prepare their children. And I'd love your advice more on this. I know for us, I always correct my children. As soon as they say something very traditional, I was like, like even, even if they say like, oh, and when I get married, my husband I'm like, or wife or like I'm, I'm really proactive on it. And, but I assume there's really good books or kids books and stories that just have characters of all different types of families. So if you've any recommendations I'm personally interested cuz I think it's yeah.
Speaker 3 00:37:33 Um, so I'd say firstly, the main thing is about normalizing it as a parent, it's just bringing into their lives. Um, and just to touch back on what you're saying, a bit kind of remarks coming from a place of ignorance, most people are quite willing to accept their shortcomings. So when we were at a prenatal class in the rotunda and there was midwife giving it and she was of an older generation and she was given a class, but everything she spoke about, she framed with the husband, the husband, the father, and it didn't particularly bother me. And we actually had friends in the same prenatal class that were also a same sex female couple. And then I was conscious that because it made me start thinking about it. I was like, there's women in here that might not have a partner let alone a husband or wife.
Speaker 3 00:38:28 And you you're, you're putting this big responsibility on the husband that you just need to be more mindful of the way you're addressing people. And people are definitely more receptive to, I spoke to the midwife after the class in no way, like I wasn't correcting her. I wasn't aggressive about like just saying to her, just to be aware that you actually had to do the same text couples in your class and just be more mindful with Lang of your language. And she was so apologetic and she's, she said that she's actually does try to be mindful of these kind of things. And she's she was so ashamed of herself embarrassed and all the rest. And then there are some that kind of come completely left field. Like we had a community midwife here in the days after Nina's birth and they were obviously checking me out and they were checking Emma out. But she said, which one is the mother? And Emma said both of us. And she goes, yeah, but which one's the real mother? And it was just such like, it was obviously, she was just trying to be efficient. And she was, you know, that was just her instinct, but it was such a terrible way to phrase it. And you know, especially in the days after birth, like your whole life has turned upside there and you don't need that kind of crap on top it
Speaker 1 00:39:44 About language, um, friend highlighted to me recently that people were talking around her on tour, she was in a group of friends and someone said, oh, well that person is gay, but that person's normal.
Speaker 3 00:40:01 You're like
Speaker 1 00:40:04 What? You know? And actually God like this is it it's it's I think it tends to be down to people's exposure. Maybe, maybe like give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they just don't know the language to use. And maybe that's what I hope that conversations like this and just in general, like normal inclus, it's really important. And I have even found that I've, you know, as a hedge for a woman evolved over the last few years, because I think the, the chat is getting louder and I think people are learning a lot, but like it's hard for lesbian couples, gay couples, like any type of couple to have to face that battle. Like that must be exhausting.
Speaker 3 00:40:57 Ah, sorry. <laugh> it doesn't, it doesn't happen too often. Thankfully like it doesn't, it's not a massive factor. Um, for us it might, it might be once you started school again, we don't have too much trouble, but then we live in Dublin. So I mean, it could be different other places.
Speaker 1 00:41:14 So I've been looking at photos of Amelia on your Instagram and I'm pretty certain, she's not gonna have any problem
Speaker 3 00:41:22 Herself
Speaker 1 00:41:23 Connect for herself. She looks completely
Speaker 1 00:41:26 Sassy and cool. Like she's cool. Like all of her outfits and her attitude, I'm so jealous. Like she's fabulous. And I think, like I said, there it's about surrounding yourself with the right people and that's the same for any human, you know, people can be nasty about anything at all. And saying that it's, it's just, gender is ridiculous. So I think it's really important to cut those people loose. And I, I, I hope that the rest catch up, but until they do, I don't think they should have a place or right. To be involved. And yours are Amelia's life. Do you know?
Speaker 3 00:42:08 Sorry, I skipped over your question about the resources for, um, same sort of couples. So what I would say is, yes, we have a pile of books that have same sex parents. Um, we also have few about a Teddy that identifies as female. That was male, you know, that kind of thing, but they're all really specific books targeted towards LGBTQ plus families. And they're not going to enter the lives of anyone that doesn't specifically seek them out. And the same is true of any kind of media that your child comes across. So in like cartoons and such the only kids program I've come across. And I think there are, but I haven't come across in day to day. Um, Wrigley Jones on Netflix has a mummy that has two daddies and also has a nine nonbinary bison, um, called Fred. Very good. But nothing's made of it. That's just, it's just the way, the way they're and that's the thing you move on and that like, that's it. Yeah, because that's the way it should be, should be like, it should just be a background thing because you don't read a book that says, this is Anne. She has a mommy and a daddy. They're great fun because that shouldn't be the topic of the book.
Speaker 4 00:43:34 Parents
Speaker 1 00:43:35 Are like hetero couples. Shouldn't be congratulating themselves for having like non-biased like that. It's, you know, it's not about that. It's it's about, as you said, it should be dated. It's literally exceptions. You like, what difference does it make yet? Like it's down to the same thing as even with the way I parent my children. I say that like, I don't have a partner, sorry. <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:44:04 Like you don't parent them at all. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:44:09 But you know, I look at our dynamic in our family unit and actually as a couple really, really equal. And we probably don't conform to the, the way old tradition of man and wife. Like we were forced into situations where we had no childcare and we just worked opposites. So, you know, he, he was, he was always around the children as much as I was. And um, God COVID did that to a lot of people as <laugh>. Well, cause obviously we were both, we're both pharmacists. So we were both working the whole way through. So we had to like do opposites. So on your day off you were homeschooling and it's just, anyway, I'm not gonna go into the PTSD I have. But I suppose even when you look and you compare my family unit to even some of my siblings, family units, the way they parent everything, you know, every, every family is so different.
Speaker 1 00:45:05 And I think you find your crowd, you know, you find your tribe and it's down to the type of person it's not gonna be based on gender or anything. So I, I like that. It's about surrounding yourself and not comparing yourself in any part of parenting, I suppose that's really important. And I think that can take years to master. So I'm sure there'll be challenges as Amelia grows up. But once she, like, I think even if in school she gets the odd comment or anything like that. I think having her equipped with the language to explain to the child that said it, and I think, I don't think a child bash an eyelid, you know,
Speaker 3 00:45:53 You're very accepting, you know, any child just accepts
Speaker 1 00:45:57 Scotland. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:45:58 That's the way it's yeah. Yeah. Black and white and then, then move on.
Speaker 1 00:46:02 And what would your advice be to any same sex couples starting out? And that's a very big question, but
Speaker 3 00:46:14 It is, I think like talk to other families that have gone through it is the main one really. And they're the only ones that can retail. You can get so much information online, the likes of therapy, fertility hold kind of question, answer sessions very regularly. They do podcast. So they're really good. Yeah. Podcast as well. And yeah. Um, but yeah, really just talking to other families
Speaker 1 00:46:41 And overall, like what have you found? Well, I know what the best part is, cuz it's the hardest and the best part, the best part tome app, but what was the hardest part? And this doesn't need to be based on the fact that you're same sex couple. I just mean of the whole journey of having a baby.
Speaker 3 00:47:02 Oh the trying to get pregnant part for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:47:06 Yeah. After
Speaker 3 00:47:07 That, not a walk in the park, but I mean it's far, but I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1 00:47:12 I'm hearing, you'd like to babysit with three children. That's what I'm hearing home is at home. Is it? Yes. What time will I drop them off? <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:47:22 Um, for me I found immediately very different. I'm sorry. Yeah. After a media was born finding my role, I found incredibly difficult a media and Emma had Ooh, a traumatic birth and she spent a, you were three days in labor in the hospital and then Amelia had, um, high risk jaice. So she was in the NICU. They were there for like the goods of a week, which was half of my then paternity leave. So half of my paternity leave was just spent going in and outta the hospital. Um, and then I was a week then after she was born at home and it's such a row end. And then they were trying to adjust to their breastfeeding journey and Amelia had had such traumatic birth and the John and stuff that she like you, as they say, there's no such thing as a difficult baby or an easy baby <laugh> she was a difficult baby. She was, she never stopped crying five months. She cried. Yeah. She never slept. And Emma couldn't leave her. Like Emma would be gone for a shower and, or like even just gone to the bathroom, like those like three minutes of alone time immediate were so intense that Emma would come back to find me and Amelia Bo crying on the bed. I don't, she, she doesn't want me because I can't, I can't breastfeed her yet. That didn't stop her trying to breastfeed from me.
Speaker 1 00:48:55 Well, you've got be fair to her. I mean,
Speaker 3 00:48:59 One midwife told me it might happened. I was, I was on board. I was like, if I can do this, I'm doing it some help. But yeah, those first couple of weeks, just trying to find your own part.
Speaker 1 00:49:16 And I think like, or couples can feel like that too. Except I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out in my head, is it harder because you're a same sex couple and you get to define your roles in a way much. And actually, as I said earlier, I don't think myself and a conform, you know, with a traditional role, but maybe there was, there was options there of roles we could have gone down. Whereas I think you two probably had to figure out so much more and
Speaker 3 00:49:53 Yeah. And a lot of it was hormones, which is not great, but like, um, just kind of an evolutionary kind of thing, even though you haven't given physically give birth, I a child, this is the same child. She's still a woman. Yeah. The parents that adopt a child goes through the same, the exact same, not to the same intensity hormone surges that a woman has just given birth. So like me saying that I really wanted to breastfeed, like I was getting the same, like tingles in my nipples and stuff. When she cried, I'd have like a physical reaction to it, but couldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1 00:50:29 Yeah. That's hard. Like,
Speaker 3 00:50:31 Yeah, for that side of things was very hard.
Speaker 1 00:50:34 That's very difficult.
Speaker 3 00:50:35 Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:50:38 Hard. You're trying explain that. You're probably there saying to I, no, my boobs really. And she's like seriously and you know, they do, can you please nurture my neediness here because it's the same as yours, you know? And it's, it's all of that. Like it's yeah. It's just finding your ground and look, I think, yeah, definitely being a parent. I mean, you're a basket case after the first one and no matter what, like it's so I remember having, I had to have C-sections and not because I particularly wanted them, but just the way things happened and I was really shocked that I was gonna have a C-section so it was elective. And I remember after the C-section I came outta the recovery room and I couldn't obviously you can't feel your legs, you're got catheter, all this kind of stuff. And then they hand you a baby and then a was there for a few hours and they're like, yeah, now mind the baby.
Speaker 1 00:51:35 And you're like, what? Someone having an actual laugh here. I just said major Lin surgery. And I don't know what to do with the baby. Like I knew all the practical pharmacist advice, but cheap out. Like I was very unequipped. I didn't have friends who had babies and adjusting to motherhood full stop, nevermind breastfeeding. So like, you know yourself, like breastfeeding is not really that natural. Like, okay, it's natural, but not at the start. It's a learned skill. And it does take time to established. So I, I think that whole phase is very difficult on every parent. I'm gonna end more in a way that just makes me smile thinking about it. So the best bits from the moment you both met, met Amelia, what, what have been some highlights and what does she bring to your life? And do you find, so these are now I'm started. Do you find that having a child and having that connection now as parents is just, okay, I'm thinking of my own life going, like it's hard as parents to have a child, but when you look over the practical things, like, does it really, do you find that you've further cemented? Does it bring more unity and I suppose established foreverness, do you know, like you've created this human being and you're molding her into a person every day. What does that give to you?
Speaker 3 00:53:08 Like I just, I love being a mommy. <laugh> yeah. It's just my favorite thing about living is being a out, living this being really as mommy <laugh>. Um, you know, so as soon as someone asks me just how is she? I'm like, sit down there now I'm going to go through a hundred pictures, which can tell her full life story. <laugh> um, she's gas and she's my best friend. She's just so like, she's so funny. She's so funny. I couldn't, you know, and then I'm sure if I told anyone how funny she was, they'd be like, sure, whatever. Yeah. I couldn't even say like what would be the highs just every day? Like, yeah. I love it.
Speaker 1 00:53:55 And I know people can't see your faces right now, cuz this is podcast, but you're gonna make me cry with the just smoke. Delighted, happy smiles on you. Like,
Speaker 3 00:54:03 No, it's just so hard to remember life before her. I know every parent says that, but it's true. I don't even wear we before. Yeah, no <laugh> yeah. Just every day's just lots of fights. I mean, of course. Yeah. We, we, but I mean
Speaker 1 00:54:19 Says otherwise I'm just saying
Speaker 3 00:54:22 Even her fights are hilarious. It's so hard to not just like, yeah, you're hilarious. Or like she'll make a point. You like yeah. Yeah. You, you do have a point. Maybe you won this argument. I don't know. What do I know
Speaker 1 00:54:38 When you hear them repeating stuff back to you? Darn it. I think I gave you that.
Speaker 3 00:54:44 Yep. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:54:47 Sponges. I think what you're saying is your journey as hard as it was and as much determination as it took, you never look back.
Speaker 3 00:55:00 Oh no.
Speaker 1 00:55:04 Like people people need to fight for. Oh, I was actually about to say a Cole song. They need that did that, but I, no, <laugh> both. People need to fight for the family that they believe in and they know they can offer a child a wonderful secure home of course, with fights. Because like, are my children are like every day they must say to Meina you stop bickering, you stop bickering. And then when they're arguing, they're like, well, we get it from you. <laugh> they're so funny. But yeah, it's, it's been amazing to talk to you and so nice to hear your journey and so interesting. And I definitely have to say that before thinking about all this and before talking to you, like there was a big part of me that was ignorant and like not in a way that was intentional, but just don't think I ever get weight to the considerations that need to be undertaken when you're having a child as a same sex couple and
Speaker 3 00:56:19 She don't. And there's no reason that you would, because even like when you mentioned their two dads or whatever, like I'm completely ignorant to everything yeah. To, to their journey. Like again, I can only speak for if you are same sex couple that has gone through a fertility clinic with an own owner. And probably that's a lived experience four years start four years ago because I don't know what situation is now.
Speaker 1 00:56:45 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:56:46 Because once you have your family, which is like completely selfish in this point of view. Yeah. You're like, okay, we're happy.
Speaker 1 00:56:54 <laugh> yeah, no. And do you know what though? It's probably like anything you're exhausted from your journey and you actually want to enjoy your time with Amelia and you deserve to do that and you deserve to switch off and just to have normal days where you're not fighting for your rights. And thankfully there are some amazing people out there advocating for same sex couples. And I would really urge any couple whether same sex or any person, you know, whether gay or straight, they need to look at that assisted human reproduction coalition paper because you know what, it just, it just opens your eyes to. Yeah. And I think like ignorance is okay, as you said, very kindly there forgivable in a way, but think for humans to show true empathy. Yeah. We need to talk more. We need to understand this more. And as you said, even for Amelia's sake, my children have come up with a mom, grown up with a mom and a dad and we we've always made a conscious effort to make sure that they understand that that's not the only type of family there is. And that's, that's probably, it's, it's human effort is gonna make life easier for everyone. Hopefully.
Speaker 3 00:58:20 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:58:21 Thank you. So, so much for talking to me, as I said, it's been a complete pleasure and yeah, I hope I'll get to catch up with you guys at some other stage to hear how Amelia is getting on at school, but I really don't think you're gonna have any problem with her. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:58:37 We'll see. Thanks
Speaker 1 00:58:38 Gina. Thank you so much
Speaker 3 00:58:41 To.
