Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 Hello, and welcome to the wonder podcast. My name is Sheena Mitchell. I'm a pharmacist and mom of three. I'm here to chat all about child and family health. I really hope you enjoy the show. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Medicare fem sense. Ireland's newest and most innovative ovulation tracking solution. The Medicare fem sense smart temperature patch is comfortable and discrete and is worn under your arm during your fertile window to measure and confirm ovulation women have reported a 93% success rate in detecting ovulation with over 10,000 pregnancies already recorded. Visit Fleming medical.ie/fem sense for more details. Okay, Jane, welcome back to the wonder Baba podcast. I enjoyed our last chat so much and learned so much from it that it actually brought me on to have a whole new level of questions and just considering how children's online relationships evolve into the world of phones. So thanks a million for talking to me again about this important topic. Great
Speaker 2 00:01:14 For here. Again, Sheena,
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Every parent is under pressure and every child is under pressure to keep up with societal norms and something that has evolved to become a societal norm is for children to get phones. And I know it'll differ from family to family, and I know some parents may in a way be forced to give their child a phone earlier than they would like due to practical reasons to communicate with all family members and also on a safety level, depending on the child's life out and about coming home from school or whatever. So is there any recommendation of what an appropriate age is for a child to get a phone?
Speaker 2 00:01:58 So I'm gonna give another, uh, I suppose, unpopular answer there isn't any kind of recommended or set age in terms of when you should give your child a smartphone. I think in terms of the way we look at it is, you know, children are accessing the internet from increasingly young age, you know, 93% of children, age to 12, own a smart device boarding to a recent cyber sea of kids survey. And 84% of that age group are using social media. So to your point, there's different reasons why you might give your child a smartphone. We know often parents might talk to other parents in this area and maybe agree an age that they're happy together for the group to get a smartphone that maybe allows them to take more control of that. And that can be really useful. And we know then, you know, others might give a smartphone when you're going into secondary school.
Speaker 2 00:03:02 If you look at, I suppose, age restrictions, then if we look at it from that, um, age restrictions in terms of social media, most social media platforms are age for age 13 enough. So technically anybody below the age of 13, uh, shouldn't be on social media, but we know this isn't the case. The age verifications are, you know, fairly easy to bypass. And we know from that recent survey that lots of children under the other age are on social media. There's, there's some social media apps that are set at 16 or, uh, messaging apps, WhatsApp. So if you look at it in those terms, there is small bit of, of guidance. What we kind of would tend to focus on is what are the considerations. If my child is going to be getting a smartphone or using social media, and these are things like doing your research in terms of, okay, if I give them a smartphone, what would they be using the smartphone for?
Speaker 2 00:04:00 What are the functions on the smartphone? Are they gonna have social media or messaging on that smartphone? If they are, what site are they going to be using? Am I happy for them to be using that site? I'd encourage parents to take a look at the parenting hub. Why, why.ie? There's an apps explainer guide to all the most popular social media apps your teen may be using. So these breakdown things like Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, look at safety considerations, how to update settings on that. And I suppose give a bit of a breakdown of how the, the apps were and why they're popular as well. So kind of demystifies some of these things, cause we know parents, um, aren't always confident in this area and that's okay. You, you're not expected to be up to date with these things all the time and cause your kid might understand them better.
Speaker 2 00:04:56 It still doesn't mean that you don't have a role to play or that you can't support them. There's lots of ways you can support them. So there's other considerations, um, in terms of ensuring your child will be familiar with how the settings of the phone work, the privacy settings, any of the safety settings on social media, and they can all be fined in the setting functions of platforms and bones, understand that your child knows what to do. If something goes wrong. If something happens on social media, that they can come and talk to you and that you guys will figure out a solution together and not to be afraid or embarrassed to come to talk to you, talk to them about the types of information that's okay to share. If they're using social media, talk to them about making friends online, who they're communicating with. So those are some of the key considerations we would say, if it is time, if you're getting to that stage of thinking of a smartphone and, and you decide that, okay, I think they're old enough. Those are some of the things we'd recommend to talk to, uh, your child about and to think about.
Speaker 1 00:06:07 And I think that really comes down to something that we discussed on the last episode, fostering an open and good relationship with your child. So in a way, the good work that you've you'll have put in as your child was younger will follow through. And here you're just able to have another conversation to reinforce that they're not alone online, that they have you to turn to. And maybe yeah, like that, to emphasize that if something happens because do you know our children aren't Saint themselves. So it may be that they do something wrong and it's not that the world is against them. Maybe it's their action that they're ashamed of or wish they could take back and they need help, or they need help in maybe conversing with other children or families or parents if, if they've done something wrong. So I think having that open relationship is really important.
Speaker 2 00:07:00 I was gonna say, there's actually, I suppose some other supports that parents can be aware of in terms of kind of practical th guards on devices and things like that. There's things like Google family link, which, you know, can have families manage apps and screen time and that sort of thing. And some of the social media sites offer some very kind of useful supports. For example, TikTok have a parent function. So that allows parents of teens aged 13 and older to connect. Uh, they they're kind with their child. So that, that helps them manage things like screen time and who they can direct message. So those are certainly kind of helpful controls to have in place as well as the conversations. Um, and I know Instagram are developed, you need parents guide as well. So there's lots of additional supports there as well.
Speaker 1 00:07:51 Okay. Are there any there resources or say obviously if you're using an apple rather than an Android device, eager devices can all be linked. Yeah. What are the easiest way to, to put in those safeguards in general? Now I know you're talking about the different apps there, having individual controls, which is good and probably the way it'll go a bit more connecting devices, it just makes for a more comfortable space, maybe for those kind of kids who are too young to be fully independent, but are there yeah. Are there <laugh>, I don't sound like a stalker, but is there a way of viewing what your kids are looking at, which leads us on to an important point that at what point do you stop looking at what your children are looking at on their phones? And, and at what point they're entitled to privacy, but I suppose first of all, just what ways are there when your child gets their phone first for you to ensure that their online life is safe or that their communications are appropriate.
Speaker 2 00:08:54 So there is lots of apps and, and supports out there. I wouldn't be able to name any specific ones that you're kind of alluding to all the individual ones would have supports within there to help manage screen, time, to manage apps and things like that. Like Google family link or the Chi TikTok pairing support as well. And I think that those sorts of solutions are really helpful, but they shouldn't be in place of having open and regular conversations. So I think it's really important to, to remember that, that, um, those types of things are only support. And as our children get older, it is more important to focus on the conversations. And I suppose ensuring that they know you are there to come to talk to you if, if anything comes up.
Speaker 1 00:09:48 So a lot of people obviously understand the benefits of removing phones in the evening and might put all devices into the kitchen or in the parents' room or whatever overnight to charge. I, my, my kids aren't really at phone age just yet themselves, but I know a lot of people go through at the end of the day and review what their child has been up to. I wonder about that in terms of how much privacy to give them, you don't wanna miss them being bullied. Hopefully you shouldn't need to do that. Cuz you've had all the good conversations and you've had positive relationship with green time before now, but it is something that yeah. Is, is definitely happening. So is it appropriate or is it best to avoid doing that?
Speaker 2 00:10:37 I think it's with this, I suppose area, I think it's really important that we kind of think about privacy and trust and putting trust in our child as they get older, that they will come to you, teenagers are going to be wanting their own privacy and wanting to be trusted as well. So what we would recommend is have the conversations and keep the conversations going, I suppose, avoiding over monitoring of devices because it may lead to less trust and openness overall, I suppose a good tool that we have to help support families is we've developed a family contract. This allows families to sit down together and make an agreement about how, how the internet easys or high devices are used. You know, again, highlights what to do if the rules are broken or if something goes wrong or something happens. And we'd encourage families to revisit this as kids get older and maybe introduce more freedom.
Speaker 2 00:11:48 And I think kind of centering it around something like a family contract is a really kind of healthy way to look at it. And I think gives everyone an understanding in terms of taking phones out of bedrooms and keeping them in the kitchen overnight. And, and that sort of thing, ways that help our children switch off at night are, are really welcome and really helpful. It's really hard to put our phones down. We know this is adults. If you think about when, if you have a phone, when you're going to bed, our phones are designed to keep our attention. Think of all the notifications we get the bright colors we can even see when somebody is typing our response so that we don't put our phone dying. Like there is some very clever design going on here to get our attention that we struggle with.
Speaker 2 00:12:39 So how difficult is it for a, a teenager or for a child to put that D and we know that rest and sleep is really important. So think anyways, as, as families that you can introduce ways that there is switch off times and signing off times are really good. And I think actually a lot of children will welcome it. They may not tell you that at the time, but guidance and support in this area is really welcome. I remember when we were kind of in the middle of the pandemic, we, you know, we were regularly catching up with our youth panel and checking in with them and suppose kind of seeing what life was like for them now that everything had went online and they were saying how they were feeling frazzled from being online all day, being on classes on day, all day, and then kind of going home and going back on devices and things like that. And they find it a lot. So absolutely I think anyways, to help switch off is, is a really good thing and a really welcome thing.
Speaker 1 00:13:43 Okay. So discussing with the class maybe, or a friendship group, the parents of the friendship group, maybe making a joint decision on when everyone gets phones so that your child isn't in a position where everyone else has one and your child doesn't, or you give your child wouldn't prematurely and put pressure on other parents. I think that's hugely, hugely useful and would be a big relief to a lot of parents trying to navigate the right decision making process. Also when you're giving your child a phone and I'll, I'll talk more in a minute about the different types of phone, but when giving your child a phone, you're obviously locking down the individual apps and things, and only allowing what you're comfortable with, but you are allowing them on to kind of relatively age appropriate apps and social networks to allow them to have that sense of social belonging and discussing maybe with them, what they're allowed, what they're not allowed.
Speaker 1 00:14:41 And, you know, working through that contract that is available on web wise.ie together to ha to enable those conversations. But what I'm getting here <laugh> is that you're not then in the evening, scrolling through your kids' phone to see what they've been up to. That's kind of a trust barrier that maybe isn't the best way forward. And I know that's difficult for you to say and down to very down to parenting really, rather than, you know, you're remit here today, but I think it's about nurturing a relationship between you, your child and their device, and having it open, having home a space that they know that they're not gonna be in trouble, if anything has happened online and the best way to approach anything they're uncomfortable with, or if they've received images or gotten in a fight that they can come to you with that, and that should negate any need for, you know, invading their privacy.
Speaker 2 00:15:40 I think you've summed that up better than I put it. Um, Dana, so, yeah, and I suppose on the social media thing, it's not to say once they get a phone, they get on social media. It's a, I suppose that that might be another consideration at some stage as well.
Speaker 1 00:15:57 And on that, cuz this is now out of pure ignorance. So obviously there's smartphones. Is there still such a thing as a, not smartphone where it's just called in texts and, and on that, like, can you really give a child a not smartphone if a lot of their life now does involve social communication with their friends, even as young as kind of 11, 12, 13, maybe, you know, at that point of kind of six class secondary skill, which is, I know when most parents, as you said, consider it, is it nearly harder to give them something and then not give them something? Are you opening it up to being left behind socially? I have big concerns about that, cuz I do think that there's actually an opportunity to be almost bullied or geared at that. You know, we don't inflict that on our child, either
Speaker 2 00:16:50 The concern around, you know, children being left out or left behind is a really, I think, important concern. Unfortunately, really, I wouldn't be able to answer that question for families, you know, to say one bone over another. It is something that is really dying to what decision a parent wants to make. There are certainly different types of bones out there.
Speaker 1 00:17:15 Okay. In terms of identifying, if your child may be experiencing problems online that they haven't come to you about like potentially bullying or you know, something that they're uncomfortable with, is there any tip on how to detect that?
Speaker 2 00:17:32 Certainly there's, there's definitely things you can look out for indicators, you know, any kind of change in your child. You know, this could be things like, uh, are they in any way withdrawn, are they spending more time online? Are they spending less time online? Do you notice them as being in any way upset after being, or going online, not wanting to go to school, not taking an interest in, in things they usually would. I suppose these can all be indicators that something might be off not necessarily bullying, but you know, that something might be going on. So yeah, it's always good to check in isn't it and ask how things are as well. You know, one of the other things I think that is important to talk about in terms of cyber bullying as well is to always have those conversations about being kind and being respectful to others online and for looking out for others online as well, there was messages around being respectful consent, having empathy, dignity, and that it's not acceptable for anyone to experience fully and you know, and talking to our kids about what to do, if they see somebody being bullied online and how they can support
Speaker 1 00:18:47 Them. Yeah. That's a very important point there that it wouldn't be your child having the issue. It might be their friend and to talk about what, what your child might do in that situation. Okay. So one other thing with your child, I suppose, getting used to the online world is that they maybe don't realize something that we've all come to learn over the last several years, that the life a person portrays online is not necessarily a true reflection. It's a snapshot of a perfect moment and it can create really high standards for us all to try and, you know, meet in our day to day lives. Whereas it wouldn't actually be a reality. So having, having those conversations with your child and maybe them understanding that life isn't as perfect as it's always portrayed, but also it's more complicated for children because young teenagers are at an age where they're, where they're easily in influenced. And there's a lot of pressure in terms of things like weight or just being more advanced, even things like having more, you know, makeup on and having the perfect clothes and sharing maybe wild pictures of nights out and cool things. How do we go about talking to children about their decision making process and what they should think about all that kind of pressure that exists?
Speaker 2 00:20:14 I, I think you've hit on a really, really important area for teenagers. In particular, we talked to our youth panel about this in the middle of the pandemic and asked them what topic they wanted us to look at in our next camp. And, and this was exactly what they wanted to address there's pressure around body image. And I suppose the sites that our teens are using, they all very visual. So we did actually, uh, camp and it's called the full picture, launched it a couple of years ago. If, if you haven't seen the video, go onto our website and take a look, it's brilliant. It really sums up the pressures that young people can be under online, but it also celebrates the good of social media as well, which is important. But I suppose some of the things that's important to help young people to understand, you know, that not everything online tells the full story.
Speaker 2 00:21:11 It's just a snapshot. Um, a lot of the accounts we, we follow are heavily edited and curated have them understand if not everything we see online tells the full picture, social media is a highlights real, so they don't necessarily reflect our reality. And to understand that I think it's also really important that we talk to young people about self-esteem online and celebrating their uniqueness as well and individuality, and also really important to talk about algorithms. Um, cuz I think this is something that we kind of forget and we know that if we follow certain accounts, we'll be encouraged to follow similar accounts and all that. So we can, I suppose, get ourselves into a bit of a filter bubble. So it's, it's to be mindful of what types of content we're following. So you could actually help your child or teenager curate a healthy newsfeed.
Speaker 2 00:22:12 What does a healthy digital diet look like? Um, what we talked about in the first, um, session that can be a really useful way in terms of helping your teenager, I suppose, discover different sorts of content that they might be interested in or stuff that might inspire them as well. So that they're getting a broader view of things. And we know the FOMO thing is real. It is real, it's real for adults as well. And that can be hard. One of our youth panel gave a lovely example about how she is using social media to live more in the moment and be more in the moment. She said that, you know, when she goes to a concert that she will take her photos at the start during the first song take like, you know, six or eight photos and then she'll put the phone away for the rest of the concert. And I just saw it. That's a really smart way to approach it. And I might actually do that myself. So
Speaker 1 00:23:09 We have a lot to learn from these children who are so digital savvy.
Speaker 2 00:23:14 And so they, we so do, and they, they come up with lots of brilliant examples. So that's why our camp end this year was called talk, listen, and learn. It was a camp to support parents to support their children. And at the heart of that is align those conversations where we're talking, listening, and learning, cuz we can, we can both learn from each other to help bridge that gap.
Speaker 1 00:23:37 Yeah. And I think that applies to making sure that expectations are the same as well, which can reduce frustrations on both sides and you know, let your child tell you why it's so important, why they need a certain app. Let them tell you that, you know, they're gonna be left out and try and maybe learn more about it yourself then and show your child that you can respond to their wants. And you do understand, and that you're not trying to block their friendships, that you're, you're here to support, but sometimes us as adults might need some teaching from the children about what something is actually about. And our, our fear of it might actually prevent a healthy relationship with our child. So I think that's really been the key message across all of our conversations to do with screen time and now phones. It's all communication and learning, um, on both sides.
Speaker 1 00:24:31 So yeah, a very valuable lesson I think for all parents. And it might take some of the fear away from, from the moment of that conversation of can I have a phone, so okay. You can, but we're gonna talk about what boundaries we have as a family. So I think that's been really useful. Thank you so much, Jane, for coming back to talk all about phones and children, which definitely is yeah. A hard topic to navigate for many families and one that clearly we just need to all be a bit more proactive and engaged with
Speaker 2 00:25:03 Brilliant. Thanks for having me on. She it's been a real pleasure chatting to you.
