Speaker 1 00:00:03 Welcome to a Wonder Care podcast with me, Sheena Mitchell. I'm so excited to bring you this special episode just for Mother's Day. I hope you all have an absolutely amazing day and get spoiled t rotten. And if not, remember, you can spoil yourself. <laugh>. We don't need to rely on others to celebrate us. We should be doing that ourselves, because let's be honest, the little people in our lives aren't always fully aware of how hard it is to be a mom. Today I chat with Jen Hogan, Irish Times journalist, author, and for today only, Jen, don't worry, I won't just describe you as a mother of seven. But today, very importantly, Jen is a mother to seven beautiful children. We chat all about motherhood and I really, really hope you enjoy this episode. Welcome to a Wonder Care podcast. You are an thank you author of excellent book, surviving Parenthood, and also a regular contributor to the Irish Times on all things parenting. You definitely have your credentials with seven children who vary in age from 21 right down to seven. It's definite that you have the experience to bring expertise <laugh> to the field. <laugh>. And yeah, welcome to the podcast <laugh> with, Speaker 2 00:01:33 With the woman with, with so many children. She doesn't know what to do. She's just missing the shoe. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:01:37 Well, if anyone has a right to talk about motherhood, it's you. Okay, <laugh>. So tell me a little bit about growing up. What kind of family did you come from? Did you have many siblings? Speaker 2 00:01:49 Came from a house of, so there was four of us all together, so four girls. So it was not that large for my generation, you know? Yeah. People had kind of three and four kids a lot, maybe five. Both might be considered big. Four was fairly bogged standard in our road, but I always knew that I wanted seven. I don't even know where seven came from. Perhaps it was the Waltons, perhaps it was the sound of music. These were two programs I loved and I'm the eldest. So I mean, we we're not that far apart in age that there were babies in my house or for my daughter. Obviously she was 14 and a half when her, her youngest brother was born. She's used to babies. You know, she was, she, she hasn't had an idea about it. There wasn't a big enough gap for that to be the case of me. Speaker 2 00:02:29 But I just knew I wanted to have loads of kids. I had this kind of total notion that I was gonna have a big family. I suppose the funny thing for me is that I have six boys, so I have one girl and six boys. And coming from a house of all girls, it's so different because I didn't really know what boys are like young little boys or even teenage boys. I went to the single sex school, you know, I didn't have this kind of exposure. And then you have these children's, my, my 16 year old's, six foot three, and you've got these kind of man size children living in your house and just, and they're just so different. They're, I mean, they're so different to each other. Not like you can just say boys are one way and girls are another way. It doesn't work like that. Speaker 2 00:03:06 But there's a very different boy attitude maybe to life or, and there's different expectations of boys as well to girls. But girls, yes. You have a bit of an idea what you're getting into. So when Chloe came along, first of all, I, I thought this is great. I know what to do. I used to be a girl, but I know the drill. And I was familiar with girls having had all, um, sisters, but when the lads came along, even things are closed. Even changing nappies and, and watching out for the aids, all, everything from that early stage just was so different. And even the way people talked to boys versus how they talk to girls, the whole interactions, there are whole expectations. It was eye-opening to me. But look, it's brilliant. I, I'm enjoying it. Speaker 1 00:03:45 Your perception of what being a parent will be changes when you welcome, I suppose, different genders and whatever into the family. Totally different experience depending on what genders you have. And equally wonderful because I have two girls and they're a boy and definitely he's more affectionate at the age of seven. You know, he's very needy, which is lovely <laugh>. Yeah. Whereas the girls are fighting for their independence all the time. They just want to grow up. Speaker 2 00:04:13 They do. They fight from such a young age. The girls are kind of pulling away from you. You're not ready for that. And I, I wonder, is that where the Irish Mamie and her sons comes from? Because it's not that you welcome that dependence cause you wish they could use the bloody hoover and the dishwasher <laugh>, but the idea of you wish that they could do more things. And certainly I don't have different expectation in my boys to my, my girl. Like I expect them all to walk in. None of them do really. Not enough, not enough. Anyway. They do a this, but I think we, we do foster that. I dunno, it's, it's that pain with the boys because they feel like they need you because they have this kind of affection that they, they're not pulling away quite as early. I'm just comes in the teenage years. That's what I've experienced now yet it certainly comes then. But the girls are so fiercely independent from such a young age. And that's kind of hard to reconcile as a mom. Cause you go, no, you're my baby. I don't want you to be independent of me. Speaker 1 00:05:04 And you don't wanna be clinging onto them at the same time. So you have to allow them. And it is, it's funny and you're dead. Right. My girls are always given out to me for not favoritism, but for kind of, it's like the sun all almost gets a special dispensation where I just know he's not gonna do it. So I've kind of given up asking and that's terrible. <laugh>. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, it's, and your own mom, was she a key figure in your life and kind of what did your parents teach you about parenting? Speaker 2 00:05:33 My mom was a really strict mom, much stricter mom than I am. And it probably influenced how I parent. I think I made a conscious decision not to be quite as strict. And yet, I mean, every kid thinks they have the word as strict as parents. Particularly when you're saying, no, I made that decision. And yet I lo I laugh now because now that she's a nana, she'll hear something that the lads have got up to are done. And I might be ready to pull the hair around me head and I'll go, oh my God, they're done, whatever, whatever. And you go, oh, teens, what are they like? And this is very a casual <laugh> kinda reaction to it. And you're going, where was that when I was growing up? You know, totally different. Now it's nice because I, I think at the beginning I'd have been slow to mention if Anthony's going on at home. Speaker 2 00:06:13 So if I was having difficulty managing something because she was so strict and because I think I had taken a different approach, I was kind of afraid to say anything to her because I thought I'm gonna be judged. I think we all live in that fear of judgment or to be, see if you did things the way I did, this wouldn't happen. Or also because she was strict and I wasn't doing it correctly. And, and now I realize that she's not, that's not who she is as a nana and that's not how she views it as, as a grandparent. She's, she's great for saying, you know, you're doing your best by them, you know? And I, she's, she's actually great for saying that sort of thing or saying, oh, the kids should really appreciate how much you do for them. And she'll let them off the hook. Speaker 2 00:06:49 And it's not that I want someone to let them off the hook. I just, I, I don't, I wanna hear somebody say It's okay. I suppose that's what it is. This is what you expect from parenthood. This is what you expect from, from teenage years or even the younger years of, it's not all a gardener roses that, you know, sometimes you're trying to maneuver and manage and navigate certain situations and certain things that are going on in their lives at any stage. And there is great comfort in being able to say that now with, without still being that child who I was growing up, who, who felt, but I had to live up to a certain expectation as a mom. I don't feel I have to with her now because she already, she already tells me she thinks I'm doing a good job, you know? Speaker 2 00:07:26 So she already says that now. And she's much more relaxed with my own children, with my kids, which I find easier then. Cause then I go, that's okay. I can take this approach. I can do things a bit differently. There's so many different personalities in, in this house in my family. And I would see her have a real soft spot for the more wired ones, shall we say <laugh> more exciting ones. And I love that. Cause I see like, she literally defend them. She'd be gone. Asher, you know what? He's like, you'll hear that. It's so funny and it's so nice to hear. Cause this whole idea of, I imagine, I think I was quite an excitable child. So when you see your own child be full of mischief, you go, this is really acceptable to her. You know? And it's, it's that thing I suppose. You don't ever move away from that. Your mom is still your mom, even when you are a mom yourself and you still, so you do welcome that support. You know, you do get comfort and solace from it. And Speaker 1 00:08:17 I suppose, you know, the relationship does change because when you're growing up, you know, your mother is actively parenting you, trying to enforce whatever kind of values they have. But then the position of a grandparent, they probably really enjoy that because the way they see it, like their job is done. And it allows the growth of your relationship to become more on a level par and supportive. Yeah. Because she, she doesn't need to kind of pick up on your behavior. Now you're an adult. Yeah. But sometimes it can be hard to almost release that guilt from the standards that you put on yourself. Yeah. I think that's the biggest problem. As parents, you know, we, we definitely keep ourselves under pressure to say the least Speaker 2 00:09:01 Huge pressure. I completely agree, Gina. I be exactly there. Like it's that job, you just don't wanna mess it up. It's like the most important job and you really don't wanna mess it up. And then you've set yourself these possibly high standards. I, well social media convinced that a little bit because we're watching people who seem to have it all. And my mom is so talented in terms of she's an amazing cook and she's incredible how she can present everything to look aesthetically wonderful and amazing and, and like, I didn't get, didn't get any of that skill. And I'm just looking, I'm like <laugh> going, you know, people expect when you're a mama of seven that you fit a particular stereotype. And I am not, she, I am not that person. She, my mom will joke with me about, but at the same time she still act very proud of, of who I, who I am. Like that's perfect. But that's just who Jenny is. You know, Jennifer, she insists on calling me. She doesn't, doesn't get this Jen thing. It's called even as many years as I've been going by Jen, Jill's the only person that calls me Jennifer <laugh> and Speaker 1 00:10:00 Her right? It is. And Speaker 2 00:10:01 Her right is exactly <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:10:06 Do you ever find that when you tell people that you've got seven kids? Like I know you mentioned that it start that this kind of disbelief. Is there a societal change between now and when we were kids? Cuz you're absolutely right. Four was very average when we were growing up. Yeah. Bigger families for various reasons are more unusual. And I think a lot of it is to do with lifestyle. And we can talk more about that later. Like, it's so hard to juggle because, you know, the roles at home have changed and it's so multifaceted that I don't think we can go into that so much. But people are juggling so much more and financially and even just time wise, it can be hard to maybe expand your family. Sadly it comes down to financial half the time. So do you find that it's quite uncommon to have large family now and people are kind of surprised, Speaker 2 00:10:57 Really uncommon and people try to reconcile it in their heads to have a reason. So, you know, you definitely have people check, have you said the right number when you say how many kids you have, you might, you might just be talking, you don't mention how many children you have and then kind crops up and they might ask you or they'll tell you, you've got your hands full if you're out with three or four of the kids that's have, you know, so they, but they need to reconcile us. They'll try to find a reason why you have. So whether that's, did you come from a large family yourself and you're trying to recreate that religious people assume you're extremely religious and that was the driver, you know, because the church, you're trying to, you know, breathe a few more Catholics and that's what you're at. Speaker 2 00:11:33 And there's this kind of absolute, and it's, it's, it's the one that's kind of difficult to distance yourself from. I remember when I first started writing for the Irish Times, for example, and I think one of my first, one of my first columns anyway for them was talking about the ideas that people have about having seven children. And I wrote something about people presume that we're extreme Catholics or something like that. I remember the replies that were coming back on. Mm. I'd love to see her views though on, on uh, divorce and on abortion and all this and just making all these different presumptions that, so that's really hard to distance yourself from. And in the nature of my work I write, but all sorts of stuff. But parenting is obviously what I'd be. Um, but we'd better know write. But I write about all sorts of stuff and sometimes covering somebody's story and religion might be part of that. Speaker 2 00:12:22 And you realize they immediately make that connection. Oh, she's writing about black, she's got seven, you're going, well actually no, that's just what I'm writing about today, <laugh>. So there's, there is those kind of things that people make that presumption. I remember being very, very sensitive one time too, my daughter was in school and when she was in school they were learning something about family size. They were doing this and there was a, a thing said about only uneducated women really have big families. And it was just the whole stereotype. It was just really, and I nearly lost my mind at home. And of course her class had enjoyed this new teacher. Miss, miss Chloe has loads of siblings, <laugh>. And there was this kinda conversation happening and there is a lot of different things that you have topel. So it is something that people, so they make their presumptions Saturday. Speaker 2 00:13:06 They presume you're loaded and like, I mean you said there, we chat about lifestyle in a minute. There's huge sacrifices go with making this decision to have a lot of children. You know, you, you weigh up, you know what the fallout is, even career-wise. Like I went part-time from the age of 24 because I was there going, okay, I want, I wants to try to be at home. I was lucky enough to be able to, to be at home. I was trying to balance that and having more children. I knew I was, I was planning to have more, you're trying to work patterns that mean you could go to work and now don't have more than two children in childcare at the same time. People are good. How do you manage to do it off that have seven children? It must be because she's rich or she must have a nanny or she must have loads of health. Speaker 2 00:13:46 I don't have any help. My parents don't live nearby. My husband's parents don't live nearby. It is us. We're a motor drink through, kind of get numb with it. But there is a lot, a lot of presumptions about that being the sort of person that you are. It's hard sometimes it's actually hard sometimes to disassociate yourself from it. And I, the proudest thing I've ever done is have seven children. But when you're a professional as well and you have seven children, there's a lot of people that try to bring you back being mommy, you seven, that's all there is to her. And there's nothing all about being a parent anyway. It's a huge, huge job. So to kind of be be reary like that is terrible. It, it's a terrible thing to do to a person. And it's a terrible way to view parenthood, to view mothers and fathers who, you know, again, this most amazing job. It shocks people to the degree generally that they'll have to find a reason for it. Speaker 1 00:14:33 Re what really stands out there is that people try and define you by the fact that you have seven children. Yeah. And part of what I wanted to talk about today was the importance of kind of maintaining a sense of yourself. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And look every parent, no matter if you have one child, because once you've one child, ultimately, you know you have responsibilities and you need to be in a certain place at a certain time. And your selfish life is in essence gone. So I think the one thing with seven children is it's important to remember they're not seven babies. They're of varying ages with varying amounts of independence and at, at various stages. Like it's certainly for me, motherhood was a defining moment. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But my youngest is seven now. And you know, every year as their needs change, my sense of self again becomes kind of stronger and I'm kind of prioritizing it a lot. Speaker 1 00:15:32 And that's not because I don't love my children or want to be with them all of the time. It's because ultimately I feel like if I am honoring myself in a more proactive way, like recently since January got to start, it felt like the most selfish act I could ever do. I said I'm gonna walk for an hour every day. And I had to do a lot of juggling. Like for example this morning it was on a treadmill before the kids went to school trying to get organized mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But like some days like if Alan is here and not at work, I'll just be like bye and I'm not taking anyone with me. No I'm going. And that felt so, so selfish and it's made such a huge difference to me. And for me, I've always worked throughout the kids being young so they understand work and you know, that wasn't a choice for us, but I'm very happy that I did have a way to kind of hold onto a sense of myself. Speaker 1 00:16:26 And I think that is good for the children to see in a way as well. So what importance do you put on maintaining that self-identity and how do you then balance that with work? Which, you know, cause there is a tendency to assume that a mother going to work, that's her me time. That's very indulgent to you there. And it's like absolutely <laugh>. No, that's work. So actually there's my work life, there's my family life and then there's me. It's important to try and balance all those things and it's a huge job. How do you manage that? Speaker 2 00:17:02 I completely agree with you about, you know, your identity and finding that time for you. I'd love to say I successfully find time for me. I, I don't have regular time, so I grab it where I can. That's what I suppose is all I can do. I can't manage to fit it into the day. And it's not that I don't hugely value it, I suppose I'm at the stage now where with seven of them and with six of them doing activities of some degree or other, and it's not that everybody's doing a huge amount, it's just that there's a huge amount of kids. So it means everybody's doing it. And that very much eats into my free time in the evening. I also, if anybody follows me on social media, see I'm writing at all hours. You know, it's not unusual for me to, to play, uh, for David words at two o'clock in the morning. Speaker 2 00:17:42 I'm sitting there going still, right? Because this is the time that I have to fit it in. So it is really difficult. I think women in particular, because we talk about this kinda loss of identity, we don't talk about this with men, we don't talk about this with dads because perhaps they go back to work obviously that bit sooner. I dunno, their lives continue as normal, not, not completely normal. Sorry. There, there's obviously Parenthoods a huge upheaval, whether you're your mom or dad, even in a positive upheaval, it's a huge change to your life. But for us there's that judgment. There's, are you gonna be a stay-at-home mom? Are you gonna work that, you know, we are a version of mothers. Whereas dads are just dads. They go, you don't talk here about, you know, working dads, we just hear about working moms. You know, we don't even the language we use around it means that all our identities have been pulled in all this different direction. Speaker 2 00:18:26 I have not changed since I became a mom. I honestly felt I didn't change. I felt, but what happened to me was I felt that I hadn't the time to do what still made me, me. And I was nearly railing against this expectation to be a certain person. I don't conform to the type of mom that I should be. That society expects of a mom of seven. I suppose that's what it is. I'm not the go, I'm not a good cook, I'm not a great seamstress, I'm not All those things that traditionally moments were brilliant that I, I do enjoy the crack. I still enjoy the banter and the mess and I, I enjoy my job an unbelievable amount. You know, we talk about your, your work identity, your personal identity and your your motherhood identity. But my job is, it's like sometimes, I mean, I work really, really hard, really hard. Speaker 2 00:19:12 But I enjoy it more than anything I've ever done in my life. And because I enjoy it. It's, it's not that it's a break most god jeez. No, it's definitely not a break. <laugh> definitely not a break. It's like, it's full on. But it is something that brings me joy, I suppose to, to merry condo. It, it does bring me joy. You know, I do enjoy what I do. There's been times I've gone, why don't you just get a nine to five and have a job that you switch off and you don't have things coming through to you in the evening or the weekends and you don't have to always be in tune with what's going on. But I, I love that side of things too. It's trying to balance that, trying to be seen as not just a manam. And I hate even saying that because there's no, just as I said there about being a mom, it is the most amazing thing you do. Speaker 2 00:19:52 And whether you work full-time, part-time, stay at home, whatever choice it is you, you make, it's an, it's incredibly difficult. It is really hard. Whatever way you do it. And I, I do think, you know, society likes pitch us one against the other a little bit. And, and none of this is happening to the dads. Like, this is where you take our eye off the ball. This is not happening to the dads. They're not being pitched one against the other. But we are, and this whole idea, I suppose of, of trying to be who you are still. And it's, it's hard for me a little bit because there's a crossover between being a mam of seven and what I do as well. So, well, like I said to you, I write about lots of different things. My area that I'd be best known for is obviously right about parenting and family. Speaker 2 00:20:30 And this is what I love and this is my, I suppose my comfort zone, my expertise where I'm most comfortable. But you find then that you, even in a professional sense, I, there's been times Gina where as a professional I've been on the radio with, with the male colleague and we are both talking about the same thing. And I get introduced as mommy a seven and my colleague doesn't have any reference made to the number of children he has. There was one time I remember a colleague jumped in and went, father two deliberately recognized her. Oh my god. I mean I, I, this is so appreciative of him. He spotted this and uh, and said it and I was there going, okay, that kind I appreciate, you know, him making that gesture. But it's very difficult even within, because sometimes it's very relevant to mention the kids. Speaker 2 00:21:15 It's completely relevant. That's where I'm coming from. I understand this particular subject that we're talking about because I've lived it, I've got lived experience or have these particular insights. But there are times it's not even, and it still comes off, you know, it still gets mentioned and you're sitting there, uh, nearly scratching your head going, how, how, how can I distance the two? And I mean the most important job to me, which is gonna sound completely corny, but I think we all know that being a parent, you know, that this is what I wanna get really right. The idea of living with making a mess of par. Like that's, I suppose that's how we hold ourselves to such high standards. Cause we wanna get that right. You're trying to be the best moment, be the best journalist and be the best Jen. And it's hard. It's really hard. Speaker 1 00:21:54 Listen to your talk there and now I'm gonna sound like a mad weirdo, but it's actually making me emotional because I have the whole way through the last decade of being a parent have fought with what I want because being a parent, like some days I'm like, I just want to be a stay-at-home mom because there's no, there's nothing else that I should be doing because I love the bones of those kids and I want to ace that job. Okay? Like I had a business and unfortunately, you know, yourself being self-employed, you've got financial responsibility. So I had to go back, but he did take my maternity and I did really resonate with that time in that it just really was very important to me. But as I've gone on, I've, it's not that I have devalued my role cuz actually, you know, as a parent you grow and grow and you love your kids more and more every day because they change and they become hilarious and funny and fun to be around. Speaker 1 00:22:53 But I've wanted to go back to work, but then when I was back in work full-time in the pharmacy, all I wanted to do was be at home. And you're absolutely right. That's maybe the difference between some moms and dads. And I am not saying all, but for moms, you want to be present in a lot of cases with your children, but you're either a, forced to back to work or b you want to work because you know that it's important for you. You know, your job is valid. Like, let's be honest just as much as anyone Yeah. You know, male wearing a suit and you know, you were talking about I mightn't be the best cook or seamstress and yeah, meet your sister, but you're an excellent journalist. And sometimes I think we are slow to recognize that our work achievements are important and it's not that if you're not working, that you're underperforming. Speaker 1 00:23:51 Because for me, being a stay-at-home mom and oh my God, particularly a single mom, that is an exceptionally difficult job that should never be underestimated. And a lot of women would like to be doing that role, but can't be. And so where we place our value, it's a constant fight. Even in my own head. And look, I've been lucky because I've kind of managed to bring my two passions of parenting and pharmaceuticals, basically healthcare together so that I can talk about both in a way that makes me happy and I feel like I'm helping other parents and that's really, really important to me. But it's taken me 10 years to kind of pivot mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it, it's a constantly difficult journey. And for parents with young kids who aren't maybe sure what's life gonna look like for them in five years time? Like, it can be very overwhelming to try and navigate all of those feelings. You're absolutely right. Because I just don't think men have that same mental turmoil all the time. It's hard. Speaker 2 00:25:02 We, we nearly created a another judgment on women that they feel they have to justify working too. You know, because how are you, are you devoted enough to your kids if you're working? That kind of question hangs in the air and no one's asking it. Dads, you know, nobody's asking these questions. And it creates that divide too, when really if we wanna get quality and we wanna have a situation where women can thoroughly enjoy parenthood and embrace I suppose all the aspects of being a woman, then we need, we need men to come in on the parenthood side of things too. We need them to be open to looking at parental leave, to be open to looking perhaps at taking, you know, the summers, uh, with schools where the schools are closed, particularly difficult time for parents trying to juggle it, looking at, at trying to help manage that too. Speaker 2 00:25:46 When the summer camps don't fill all the, the childcare hours that we need or when, when we have somebody who's sick and we don't have somebody to mind mind our kids. It's about it being seen as this kind of equal responsibility. And we're not quite there yet. I think dads are getting so much better at it. I think the generation coming up are so much more aware of it, particularly because parents leave has come in now and they're entitled to to more of that and, and we're so much more aware of it. But I think for those of us in the middle of it at the moment, it's a little bit hard to, to not feel that the responsibility and the weight of the parenting world and your respected employment world isn't on your shoulders. You know? Speaker 1 00:26:21 And like the old biases are ridiculous because we're now in a place where luckily same sex couples who have a wonderful home for a child with two loving parents are now able, well not, um, they're actually not, which is a whole other ridiculous scenario, but the legislation isn't quite there to support them Yeah. In terms of their legal rights of parenting. But in general, you know, there are different shapes and sizes and appearances of families forming more obviously in society. And we need to make sure that there is room for those families to feel included and that they're welcome at the parenting groups. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, you know, it should never be a case of okay, obviously breastfeeding, you know, that's fairly niche <laugh>. You can't, you can't do anything about that. But you know, the moms and tots should be parents and tots. And I think most, you know, people having children now would welcome that because actually the crack you have in these groups absolutely. Is about the personalities, not the bloody gender. Do you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah. So, and that all maybe might help kind of progress the structures that you're talking about there in terms of parental leave and stuff. Yeah, I hope so. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 1 00:27:39 You spoke there a little bit about your parents aren't around, so that the support network mm-hmm. <affirmative> is difficult. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, how, how do you manage that or where does your support come from, I suppose, in terms of relationships changing throughout your parenting journey? Who have you found you've ended up kind of relying on more as, as a mom? Speaker 2 00:28:02 I think at the beginning it was me, me and me alone because I think the pandemic has changed things in that remote work and became acceptable. It means, I suppose even my husband worked outta the house the whole time through the pandemic, but now there's a small bit of flexibility and, and he can work from home. The odd time I, I do the bulk of it, but at the very beginning when it was, uh, we had younger children, oh, certainly we'd call and maybe my mother-in-law whatever would come up from Carlo and she might have if I was going to an appointment in the hospital. But for the day-to-day things and all that sort of stuff, it was me. It was me and the tropes where one half to go, we all went. And it was exhausting for me. It really hammered home how much the village is missing. Speaker 2 00:28:40 And I reflected on my own childhood growing up and my mom, my mom didn't have, sorry, she, her, her parents were alike. They weren't around kind of giving a handout and it was the neighbors on the road, they were who helped out and all, all the women were at home. So I suppose that was the difference. All the women were at home and if one parent was going during the school run, they brought 20 kids on the road, on the school run. The neighborhood really helped growing up. And we don't have that now. A lot of us don't even know our neighbors quite as well. People are coming and going and you maybe living in an area where they're all, people are all different ages and so very different stages of life and see different levels of connection. I tried some of the groups and some of the groups worked. Speaker 2 00:29:15 I, I reached out on social media to try and connect with other moms. Um, I made some friends through their, even like old platforms, the original kind of parenting platforms that existed all those years ago, I'd have connected with people through there. I made some friends and moms in the school and some, and, and that was great because you had maybe the odd shared pickup or the odd shared thing there, which was brilliant. But when you keep having children, those moms move on and they're at, at different stages. They don't all keep having children. And you find yourself even either having to start again or I suppose just go, this is, this is the choice I've made. And it is, it was hard. I ended up, most of the time as, as I think it happens to a lot of women as well. Cause when you make that career sacrifice, particularly if you have a partner then who is the main earner in your house, their job takes precedents or preference even. And so then what happens? They, they kind of continued. So it was largely me. I, I stood back and did that. And then I took, um, between maternity leaves, which got me over a certain degree with the younger children. I also, I came out and I stayed at home for a while. I moved to working from home. So it has been a constant juggle work-wise to make sure I was available, Speaker 1 00:30:23 Kind of celebrating motherhood. Today, it will be remiss of me just not to kind of say that I don't think that I've talked to many mothers between my friends and the podcast and just people around me who haven't experienced miscarriage at, at some point during their parenting journey. And it's so incredibly difficult and it's so important for people to realize how sadly common it is. And while people mightn't, like I know I like struggle to talk about it a little bit, but I obviously I do amongst my friends and all of that. And I think it's important for people to reach out to their friendship circles and realize even if they, you know, it's, it's their first baby that they suffer a miscarriage with, that they're still a mother and they need support as a mother just as much as someone who has a loss after having another child or whatever. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, every situation is so hard. I think as soon as you get a positive pregnancy test, you have this love that is there and that's what, that's what defines a mother. You know, Speaker 2 00:31:37 That's, that's you, you, you go, you go into the future, you see that baby, you know, you, you have the dreams, the hopes for that child's start. And it's funny, I think we all have our thing about parenthood that we don't like to discuss or that we avoid and, and we maybe don't talk about. And I know I have my own things that I avoid. I, I, postnatal depression is probably my one thing that I, I avoid and I have spoken about it, but I, I tend to go, I can nearly tense up when we go near and, and yet I think it's a really important thing to talk about. But I know miscarriage, I made a very conscious effort, particularly once I started writing for the papers and stuff to talk about it. And my book is dedicated to my children. But also I have a, I think the line is for the four, I never held in my arms, but hold always in my heart because I wanted to make, like they were very much part of me being a parent or there's a decoration for the four of them. Speaker 2 00:32:26 Each of the four of them hangs on my Christmas tree. And I wanted, I suppose their legacy to be that I spoke about this in an open way and that we had these conversations, you know, because even for that short little time that they existed, they existed. And I want people to talk about miscarriage and I want, it's such a painful thing to go through and we all deal with it in our own way. And I was, after my first one in particular was probably the most traumatic one for me. Um, and I I, it took me a long time I suppose to be able to talk about it. But I think it's such an important thing that we do, we do speak about it that nobody feels that they have to hide away. I think the 12 weeks things with pregnancy where you don't tell anyone you're pregnant for 12 weeks and it's that time you're feeling most vulnerable when you're feeling sick, when you're feeling tired, when you're most likely to have a miscarriage. Speaker 2 00:33:15 And that whole secrecy, it's, it's so shrouded in secrecy that as a result, if you do miscarry in those first um, three months, you feel, well I can't tell anyone I miscarried cuz I never told them I was pregnant in the first place. And I, so I don't know that that's necessarily helpful unless somebody wants to keep it a secret. But there's an expectation that you should keep it a secret. Don't make your pregnancy too long for other people. Don't tell people in case you lose the baby. It won't make you lose the baby. Challenge somebody. And if they, they find your pregnancy long, well pretty about them. You're one going through and Speaker 1 00:33:44 Also done this whole, I'm sorry if I had a miscarriage is awkward for you. Like seriously, do you know what I mean? Speaker 2 00:33:50 I, oh God, love you. Speaker 1 00:33:52 I always adopted the mentality that anyone that I would tell that I was ha that I had had a miscarriage, I would tell I was pregnant straight week. And that was really helpful because you know, like they knew and understood and sometimes I, I think it's one of those things when you suffer a miscarriage or if you're trying for a baby and not able to conceive that, all of a sudden pregnant women are bloody everywhere. You're like, why is everyone pregnant around me or have newborns? You're like, ah. So it's nice to people who understand that there may be circumstances where, you know, you're feeling like you wanna go puke because you just are upset about <laugh> other people's joy, which is wrong. But it's the reality, you know, Speaker 2 00:34:32 You're dead. Right. When I had my second miscarriage, my next door neighbor was pregnant at the time and she was due a month ahead of me and then I lost the baby. I was close to three months. I lost the baby. And I remember for the rest of that pregnancy, when I saw her coming, I ran into my house eventually her daughter was born and, and even her daughter, I often think when I see her daughter, I, I should have had another baby who was just a month younger. Now it was difficult for my neighbor to understand I didn't want her baby, I wanted my baby. And it was this constant reminder that I didn't have the bump like she had that I should. And I, I think it's really helpful, like you said there, if people know, cause they can understand your pain, they can understand why this is so hard for you to see pregnant people everywhere. It's that reminder of what should have been it's Speaker 1 00:35:19 Lost. Yeah. And it's Speaker 2 00:35:20 Really hard, that loss, that grief, that absolute devastation and grief and it, like you said, it's so common but it's so hard and it would be so great if we spoke about this more openly. If we got to that place where nobody felt they had to hide it. So we could kind of lift each other up as they're going through it and mind each other as they're going through it and dealing with, with their grief and loss and even the, even the physical practice, even that side of it. You know, trying to, trying to deal with the physically going through it. I mean sometimes it's more traumatic than others, uh, when you're physically going through it. But if you're trying to keep that a secret and possibly bleeding really heavily and you're worried about where you're supposed to be because you're trying to keep things going and ticking over as normal, we need that support. Women need that support. It's better. I think things are a lot better. But it would be great if we could get rid of the taboo completely around, uh, pregnancy loss and baby Speaker 1 00:36:11 Loss. And you're right, that can really only be done through conversation and openness and maybe that's where there's been an issue because you know, it's not always easy to talk about. Yeah. So work, work to be done there for everyone I think. Yeah. Before I wrap up and ask you about Mother's Day <laugh> as a concept, I just want to bring us onto this slightly lighter topic of the hilarity I suppose, of parenting and how you go from having maybe work achievements or measurable achievements and successes in life in various ways. And then all of a sudden you're absolutely delighted that someone's done a pee and the party and enjoying the importance of enjoying those moments and the little successes and the wins and how they're your new source of joy. You know, it's kind of funny. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:37:08 You're right. I mean those, those things that you're on poo watch or you're on, we watch and you're getting excited about the small things that you're going to. I love Motherland. Have you watched Modelland? No, I love it because I think, oh it's so funny. It's so funny. I think we're all a bit of each of those moms and it does all the kind of competitive parenting I things and I love all these and the, the stay-at-home dad is in there and the mom doesn't give her about anything and she's in there and, and the highly stressed woman, they're all brilliant parent. I think the reason that I love those sort of things. There's another one called the Letdown as well. It's absolutely brilliant. Uh, um, Australian, I think it is comedy on Netflix. Absolutely brilliant. And I think the reason you relate to these so well, I think the Let Down's probably my favorite, but it you relate to it so well is because though there are moments in there of absolute madness that there, that you go, I can't believe I'm obsessing about what's coming outta of her nappy. Speaker 2 00:37:59 Or I can't believe I'm obsessing about the fact that I managed to make some fruit curing or I can't believe that I'm excited that, that, you know, that a child rolled overlook 'em. We're all, I mean there's, there's hours and hours of video footage of Chloe in particular. Typically you have the album for the first child and then you go, I mean by the youngest child, I don't even think of any printed, any photos of them. She has her own out and our is a video footage where we're sitting there, we're watching them look, look the way she moves her leg or her hand or you know, and hours where we're waiting for her to roll over and these tiny things. And, and nobody cares. He cares except you. But you're really excited. Um, it's just, it's those things that bring us back to the absolute base or the obsession about like, you know, tunas and I suppose yeah. You know, even things like the obsession. I dunno if you found after you had kids talking in great detail about childbirth, you know, like really wanted to come here. How about, and and it's just the whole, I think it's you trying to process that shock of what you've just gone through. Yeah. And you need to talk, well I did, I need to talk about it with other women. Your it factor just disappears to a large degree. Speaker 1 00:39:06 You know, you lose your control freakness in a way because if you try and control motherhood, like you'll be miserable. Like you have to roll with it. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:39:16 Absolutely do. Speaker 1 00:39:17 Yeah. I think a relaxed approach Yeah. Is the only way to go. Speaker 2 00:39:20 You're dead. Right. I think that's just it. It's that loss of control at the beginning that probably we all struggle with. You know, you lose control over how much you're gonna sleep. You lose control over your house. I lost control over that a long time ago. You lose control over so much. Speaker 1 00:39:35 What for you are the happiest moments of being a mom? What brings you the most joy? Speaker 2 00:39:42 Well, you know, when you see I, I love the little, some things like, um, you see them walk along and you see one of them, one of the older ones take a little one's hand or something. I love to see that. Or you see kind of genuine affection or the happiest moments I suppose. There's been times where maybe somebody's achieved something at school or won a medal at something or just, you know, something nice has happened And I, I was taking one of my kids off I suppose to, sorry to to clarify this. When you have seven, you can't always do things equally. And that's just something I've come to accept. You can't take everywhere. Everyone doesn't get the same thing all the time. But you try to overall be equal. You know, that imbalances out. But sometimes there are different opportunities to do things. Speaker 2 00:40:23 Sometimes there are different, um, you might go to the shops and you see something that's a bargain for one of them. You don't go buy seven just so that everybody gets something. You know, things like that. You just re common sense comes into play and you realize everybody will benefit at some stage. And that's the way it works. And I was way off, uh, I was taking one of the kids off for a surprise last week and it was just one of them was going and I was looking at his little brother who isn't that much older than him and he knew he couldn't go on this occasion, but there was no resentment. Cause he knows there'll be another time he'll get to go and do something. And he was heading out that day and my little fellow was going to school late because of this. Speaker 2 00:40:55 And he turned to and goes, I can't wait to hear what your surprise is. Have a great time and give us his little brother a kiss on the head and heads up and that's it. I melted. I'm gone today. And like I've, I forget in that moment how they were killing each other just the day before. And, and you're thinking of, oh, how you're failing miserably as a mother. And you go, I've got this, I've got this. Look at my kid. They're gorgeous, good people. And they're, you know, it's those kind of things where you, you realize how lucky they are to have each other. And I know, I know. I'm incredibly lucky. Like I never take for granted that I have, I was lucky enough to have seven, which I hoped I had four miscarriages in there. I had a period of time where I found it very, very difficult to get pregnant. Speaker 2 00:41:34 I, I know how incredibly lucky I am and you're nearly sometimes afraid to say that cause you don't wanna cause upset and you don't want somebody to think you're oblivious to the difficulties other people have around having children. It's not, it certainly isn't that. But I see them together and I see the genuine love that they have for each other. And they really do adore each other. And you go to a parent-teacher meeting or something and they'll comment on how close they are and how, you know, the siblings all look out for each other and they get excited to see each other if they pass each other in the corridor. And moments like that. Things like that make me just, it's seeing them together because I spend enough time beating myself off gone. Are they missing out because I had seven? Am I not able to do certain things? Cause I had seven. And then they show me how much they love each other and not intentionally, but just that they're having moments. And I just go, wow. I I, it, it melts me like nothing else. There Speaker 1 00:42:28 Is a definite kind of loyalty there amongst siblings, which is very strong. Yeah. And they can be incredibly caring to each other. And like, that's, that's beautiful. Like that's a wonderful thing Speaker 2 00:42:40 That's amazing and makes you just, it's just those moments that make your heart want to burst. I, it's hard to, until you're just, you're just there in it and you think this is what it's about. This is actually that they have each other, that they love each other, that they're all my babies. And I just, you just couldn't at that moment, you just couldn't love them more. And yet you managed them <laugh>, you know, it's just, it's just there. That, that's what's those moments are the best moments of parenthood. Speaker 1 00:43:08 How do you feel about a mother's day? Is it something you celebrate in your house or are you not bothered? What does it mean to you? It's Speaker 2 00:43:17 Ki it's kinda done for the kids to be honest. You know, I think it's really important that we celebrate mothers really important that we celebrate mothers. It will bug me that the, that things will happen on mother day. It's a bit like all these occasions things happen on certain days and we, we show this great value and appreciation for moms, then we kind of forget about it and we don't do like to help with the actual things that we really need. You know? And, and that goes for kind of a local issue and kind of on a bit on a larger scale. You know, like we don't, we don't support moms in the way that they need to be supported. So, but I mean, for the kids they'll be really excited. There'll be cards made and school that I'll get and they'll be very keen to bring me up my cup tea and digestive and for them. Speaker 2 00:43:57 Absolutely. I don't know, I don't know if I really subscribe to it. You know, it's, um, I didn't even realize until the other day it was Mother's Day. Like it's become quite commercial. I think it's become very commercial and it's kind of lost the true meaning of celebrating maybe motherhood. And that's a bit of a pity. But I do enjoy, I do love the little cards and hopefully you get, and the excitement that they have about doing that for you or bringing you up your tea now, they could make it a regular thing. I can watch out. Speaker 1 00:44:24 That'd be nice <laugh>. And it is, you're right. It's lovely to go, oh wow, look at that and those lovely colored and flowers and it's beautiful. Like that is absolutely a lovely part of motherhood. And that is lovely to celebrate. I think you're right. Like the commercialism of it is horrendous. I, same with Valentine's and everything. It's, but I think sometimes, you know, it's, I suppose in, in its qury thoughts of reminding people mm-hmm. <affirmative> to say Thanks mom. It's nice, you know, but I'll have my tea in bed. Thanks. And you know, take that as a win and let that, you know, be all that it stands for and enjoy the cards. You know. Jen, thank you so much for coming on to chat about your thanks for having me experience of motherhood and all that it entails, including kind of work-life balance and try to grab those few minutes for yourself. I'm so grateful because you're just gas and a wealth to knowledge. So thank you for joining me. Speaker 2 00:45:19 Thank you. Thanks a million for having me on. Thoroughly enjoyed the chat.