Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to the wonder brother podcast. My name is Sheena Mitchell. I'm a pharmacist in mom of three. I'm here to chat all about child and family health. I combine healthcare and practical advice to help you on your parenting journey. I really hope you enjoy the show. This podcast is proud, sponsored by Medicare fem sense Ireland's newest and most innovative ovulation tracking solution. The Medicare fem sense smart temperature patch is comfortable and discreet and is worn under your arm during your fertile window to measure and confirm ovulation women have reported a 93% success rate in detecting ovulation with over 10,000 pregnancies already recorded coming soon in a pharmacy near you visit Fleming medical.ie/bem sense for more details
Speaker 0 00:00:57 Today, I speak to Coleman Nater. Who's a child and adolescent psycho Coleman is a mental health lecture in Waterford it, and he also writes a weekly column for the Irish examiner. Coleman is an author of the book cop on and is also host of the asking for a parent podcast. As you can see, he's a very busy person. And so I'm thrilled. He was able to join me today to speak about the impact of grief on our children and how best we can support them. We also chat a little bit about the best ways we can support families escaping from the horrifying war in Ukraine.
Speaker 2 00:01:33 Hi Coleman. Thank you so much for joining me today. I am very excited. Well excited is a difficult word when it comes to the topic that we're talking about out, but I'm looking forward to exploring grief and how to support children through grief as background for you. This came up, um, in my own life coming up to four years ago. Now when my own father passed away suddenly, and it was a very big shock. And I remember at the time I wish I had heard some guidance or had some previous experience with shock or how to help children. Whereas the reality of the time, I just didn't want to be a parent and, and push them all away. And then we moved on from there. But at that point, I think when I was kind of searching, coming back from the funeral and I was ready to reengage with my, my children, it might have been useful to have a resource to know what language is good or what level of information is good. I have a few questions for you. So bear with me and thanks again for joining us. <laugh> no,
Speaker 3 00:02:41 It's all pleasure.
Speaker 2 00:02:43 Okay. Is there any good way of figuring out if it's a good thing or not to allow your child to visit a termly ill or very end of life relative or loved one in a hospital or palliative care setting or even if they're at home?
Speaker 4 00:03:03 Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably best to preface it by saying that loss is our biggest fear. So from the point of birth, you know, loss of relationship loss of people, if you even go back to the idea of the fairy tales, if you look at Cinderella, you look at, uh, Hansel and grelin you look at snow white, they basically all have experienced loss. So they've no parents, that's the key formula of all of those things. And so when we're children and we like to read those stories over and over again, it's to reassure ourselves that even if the biggest loss happens, we can still survive. So it's reassuring to know that if the thing that we fear the most occurs, that there is hope afterwards, that we will be able to keep going. And these characters tend to be kind of meek at the start and then heroes at the end.
Speaker 4 00:03:53 And so for children, loss is, is huge. And the idea of permanency is depending on the age of the child that they will get, or they won't get. So the idea that many children will describe having a kind of a fear of dying themselves, they'll go through that kind of 6, 7, 8, 9, where they'll fear going asleep. They'll ask lots of questions or do people die when they're 100 or when do you die or when they all I die. And, and so that idea of coming to terms with permanency, you know, what is here and what is going to change, and if something changes, is it reversible or not? So depending on the age of the child, the concept of permanency and rev, reversibility is different. And so whether you're preparing a, for a permanent inevitable outcome, it depends one on the age of the child and two on their temperament.
Speaker 4 00:04:48 So some children have a temperament to be ruminative they're overthinkers, they overanalyze things. They're just deeper children from the point of view of emotionality, and those children need to be protected from their own and thoughts. And so maybe in the case of a child like that, less is more other children may seem to be more resilient or less, more, more oblivious almost to the, the trauma of grief. And that's very useful for them and convenient at the time. But that's not to say that that's not going to revisit at a later time. So that's important to kind of understand that grief is different for each child is different from the age of the child, and it'll be different in terms of the relationship the child has with the person involved. So when it comes back to your question about, should you visit in the preparation for loss?
Speaker 4 00:05:34 I've never had a child in therapy who complained that they were over inform about someone dying. I've had many children in therapy saying they were under inform, or they were, is that something they weren't told about it? Or it came as a shock or they were kept in the dark. So from that point of view, learning from their experiences, I think information is good. Preparation is good. Although the risk is that you overdo that. Um, and again, like starting primary school, some people say, let's not mention it. And just on the 1st of September saying, come on, get into this uniform and go. Other families are there from June, doing dry runs to the school and walking there, and you're going to big school and get you in your uniform and in your bag. And neither of those approaches are effective, cuz one overhands it and creates this big deal that the child can't manage and the other is ambush.
Speaker 4 00:06:25 And that doesn't work either. So like everything to do with parenting, it is about pacing and balance. What I would say is bring the child to a visit, watch their reaction watch. And one might be enough that might be that, that all they need to do, others may want to go back. Others may not have gotten a chance to say what they wanted to say or get from the experience that they wanted. Um, and I would be led by them if a child doesn't want to do it, then I would certainly not force it. Children know their own limits in terms of emotionality, although they're poor at regulating it. Uh, and that's part of being a toddler or a teenager, some will have a good sense of, of when that's getting too much or if it might be too much in may opt to do that instead. And so I would be led a little bit by them. I would be, it would be a sucker and see sort of let's go and, and see what I happens and then react to that by further visits or not do that again, but just going from the narrative of children that I've spoken to, they prefer to be informed, then lied to. And I think that's a good takeaway from it.
Speaker 2 00:07:31 Yeah. And I think that's very interesting and in a way reassuring, because a lot of times people do want to share the reality with their children, but worry, then that they're traumatizing them or they should be protecting them in a greater way where really by giving them white size pieces of information and expanding on that, as the questions come with age, I suppose, then they trust you that you're giving them the, the truth really. Um,
Speaker 4 00:08:03 And again, the innocence of childhood is something we need to protect. You know, they shouldn't feel burdened by the news. It's not. And, and the idea around grief is that they should not feel that they have any responsibility in the process. Do you know what I mean? So if somebody is in that terminal phase, it's about allowing them to be informed without feeling burdened by it. Do you know what I mean? So the idea that you'll have to get into granny now, three times now, before she dies, or, you know, that shouldn't be the case. It's just about saying, this is a possibility this may happen, and this is what we're preparing for. And I think in any situation, as a parent, the idea us, you know, we've got, this is the message you need to give to children. It's not about everything'll be okay, cuz it won't, uh, it's not about, this'll be fine. It'll be it's about whatever happens, we'll manage it. And that's the most honestly authentically reassuring message a child can get, which is we've got this, you know?
Speaker 2 00:09:00 So I personally, haven't been in a situation where, you know, there's been an expected death, but I can imagine that can be quite hard to portray when you yourself are trying to deal with your own emotional stress, you know, about the impending loss of someone that you love. So getting the, I suppose the, the appearance of I've got this across, if you don't, I can imagine it's quite challenging at times because
Speaker 4 00:09:32 It is. And, and again, I would use the example all the time about, well, before I get into that, the issue with grief is that everyone is going through it. So it's not like a child is experiencing bullying in school. So the parents are there and they're replenished and have their energy levels to try and support them with that. It's not about one person going through a crisis and the other can rally or circle the wagons around it. All the wagons are broken now. And, and the idea of a community of grief is that everyone is going through that grief at the same time. So you're not going to, as the parent have the reserves that you would normally have to offer that support. I always say, you know, approach a difficulty or a challenge like you'd approach a roller coaster. So you say to the child, I don't know what's up here.
Speaker 4 00:10:21 This could get scary. This could get difficult. I might get scared. You might get scared, but whatever happens. We'll just huddle in here and get through it. You know, when we've got each other and if I'm looking scared and you're looking scared, least we're scared together, but what will happen is we will come and we will manage it. And that's a very different message to, everything's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be grounded because if you give those empty promises and it turns out that you are not fine or they're not fine, or, and in the case of grief, nothing is fine. The, the faith the child has in your containing re responses is lessened because you promise something you couldn't deliver on. But if you promise that no matter what happens, even if days that you're not feeling up for it, or you're not able for it the next day you will be, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 00:11:07 It's again, you know, the idea that very few pain experiences last forever, you know, they, they last a long time, but not forever. And in some ways the scar remains, but the intense pain goes away. You know, and that sense of that there is a pathway outta this, no matter how it doesn't seem like that from where we are now. And it's of little reassurance to people to say, it'll pass when you're in that pain. Um, but it is reassuring to know that it very few cases go on forever and children need to know that because they don't have the life experience that we as adults have to know that things pass. Like, I don't know anyone who's had a panic attack six years ago and is still having it. You know what I mean? It passes. They all do. And the idea that whatever, having an end to something or an expected end to it makes it survivable. That's why, you know, if you're in, I'm a celebrity, get me outta here. And someone is in a box of snakes, someone's saying 30 seconds left, 15 seconds left turn. So that the idea that this will end makes it bearable. Um, and we need to be kind of, I suppose, messengers of that for children as well, that it doesn't last forever because they don't have the life experience to know that it doesn't.
Speaker 2 00:12:20 And it's probably very good for, I suppose, deepening your parenting tides with your child by, you know, going through something as a unit and together and showing them your vulnerable and maybe showing them that. Yeah, it's okay for this to be awful, but we'll be okay.
Speaker 4 00:12:40 Yeah. I mean, again, I think it's in Eastern language or something, the symbol for crisis is the same symbol as opportunity, you know, and from the point of view of, there is an opportunity in grief for closeness, also an opportunity for divisiveness. And we know that the fallout from grief and Irish families around land and all that sort of stuff that comes outwards, but in the experience of grief, there is a real community. Um, and we do grief really well in Ireland, the community of the rural community in the, in a funeral situation. And you have this kind of you factory line of sandwiches and tea that's to appear from nowhere. And there's guys out there in high VI jackets, directing cars into fields. And, you know, it's not asked for, it's just provided. And I think we do those three days brilliantly. I'm just not sure we do after the three days. So well, we do, we do celebrate very, very well. Uh, and it's one thing we should, as Irish people be very proud of the rituals, the ceremony, the, the support and the community, the community of grief is good here. We, we do that better than most. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:47 We do. We do a good send off
Speaker 4 00:13:49 <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:51 And I think those few days can saying you, if you have as positive a funeral experience, as you can. And obviously that's a very, um, conscious that that's been very difficult during COVID for a lot of people, but if you have the opportunity to have that funeral and do all of the talking and have to say, there's a lot of laughing at a funeral as well. No. How sad it is. That's, um, Irish people <laugh> will find the humor in any situation. And I think that's all an outlet and it's all very helpful conversation and yeah. Opportunity to get all those feelings out and cope together with your family. I, so definitely the Irish funeral has an, a lot to offer because when you look back after someone has died, you go, you kind of nearly think of the funeral fondly. If you've had a positive experience, you go, well, well, that was a nice goodbye.
Speaker 4 00:14:53 A and children get something from that too. They, they, they, they get the mix of emotion. You know, the idea that, uh, you know, granddad died and mom was really upset, but she was okay. There was a moment there on Saturday when her three friends from work came and they were standing outside the funeral party and they had a smile or a joke or whatever it was that it reassures the child that is, you know, there's a mixed experience here and they get the bits that are sad too. Do you know what I mean? From the point of view of that, that, that funerals, those, that period can be a very mixed, emotional time. We're getting everything out. We're getting the celebration of life on the last of life outta the one time. It's a very chaotic time of emotional rollercoaster. If I can use that metaphor again. Um, but children being part of that process, if they feel comfortable to be there can get a lot out of us. They can get a lot of hope out of us that despite this awful thing and people are still okay. And even if that's just glimpses or moments, I still think it has an impact,
Speaker 2 00:15:55 I suppose, another practical issue. And I know from my own experience, an open coffin is a very big thing, particularly in rural Ireland. And I remember at the time trying to figure out whether it was a good thing or not, kids were six, four and two, and the two year old, obviously we didn't even, <laugh> like he, you know, he had no understanding of what was going on, but the four and six year olds were and still are amazing humans and quite empathetic. So we kind of felt, you know, maybe so I remember we brought them to kind of the living room door. And we had explained that my dad in, in his soul, in essence, wasn't there and anymore, but that this, this was his body. And because I was rared rarely, I, I was always brought to funeral homes and other people's houses where there were open coffins and it never, it's not something that bothers me personally and away.
Speaker 2 00:16:53 I kind of just wanted to see was that something they wanted. So we stood out the door and we didn't make them go into the room, but they kind of wandered on their own. Do you know, by their own will. And the funniest moment, the, the two girls were standing there and one of them said, oh, he looks like he's asleep. And the everyone goes, of course, he's not asleep. If he was asleep, he'd be wearing his pajamas. And, you know, <laugh>, we just laughed. And, and they were, they kind of went, oh, well, you know, that's great. And they had drawn a couple of pictures, popped them in the coffin and off, they went not a bit bothered and we didn't make more of it than that. And I think that was the nice, simple moment, um, where they, they weren't forced, but were involved. And I often wondered about that is an open coffin too much for children. And I know it'll come down to the child and every child is very different. And for me, it was very clear that it was not something that should be forced. What's your views on that ritual, I suppose.
Speaker 4 00:18:00 Yeah. Again, I'm gonna give you that unsatisfaction of it depends on the child, but again, I, I think you, you don't know your reaction to the, that until you're in it, it's very hard to predict how you'll react to that. I've had circumstances where maybe three children were going to visit an open coffin of some description. Two seemed really relaxed about it, and one was worried, but it was actually one of the relaxed ones that kind of got freaked out by the, the notion of it. It's, it's a lot, it's a lot visual, really. It's a lot emotionally to try and take on. Some children may be young enough to be protected by the oblivion of it. Not really get that. That's actually that person passed away in the, in the middle of the front room. Others may be old enough to guess the reason why this is done and what the purpose of saying by might be and, and get that bit. But there may be that group in the middle who just find the whole thing disconcerting or unsettling. Um, and again, I don't know whether any of us can predict our reaction to that before it happens.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 Is that then something that might be better to avoid for fear of, you know, putting someone in a very uncomfortable when it's maybe not necessary.
Speaker 4 00:19:12 Yeah. I mean, the necessity of is, is debatable. I mean, whether you need to see somebody to get closure or say goodbye is, is a very personal thing, I would always regret things we did rather than things we didn't do. You know, it's very hard to bring that, you know, to, to, to recover that. And again, would give the option to any child who wants to, um, I certainly wouldn't push a child who didn't, but yeah, I mean, I mean, I think there was an encouragement of that. You might get something outta this that if you don't do, you might not, but it's up to you. A very individual thing. Grief is so individual, this is the hardest part of the conversation is to give you any sort of step 1, 2, 3, or reaction to it because it's a completely subjective experience. Just, I mean, for the record, I, I went through a period in my life, in my childhood where I seem to be always going to funerals.
Speaker 4 00:20:02 I lost three uncles and two grandparents within maybe a four year period or something like that. And they all seem to be very close together and I can remember open coffins being something that I felt particularly uncomfortable with as a child and felt I kind of should do because everyone else was doing it to this day. I still find them uncomfortable. Uh, uh, and that's an absolutely internal thing within myself. Uh, I do it because I feel I should, uh, I go in and see if I feel differently about it, but it's a space that I would, I don't linger if that makes any sense. Um, and I kind of, I, I do hold my breath and get through it, uh, even still, whether that's some lingering effects of that childhood experience, or maybe just a personal preference, I'm not entirely sure, but, uh, yeah, the childhood last a lifetime, you know, and it's important to remember that.
Speaker 2 00:20:56 Yeah. As you're saying there it's so individual, because for, for me, I think I, I really struggle with the concept of the bur element of a funeral. I hate that and the thoughts of it. So the big surprise for me, when, you know, I had a personal grief was it was really nice to see the body because it became so obvious to me that it was literal detached from the person. And it became so obviously irrelevant. And I got peace from that. I was able to maybe then go forward to say goodbye to the body because I, I had literally had to see it to believe it. But again, as you said, there, these are all very personal things. And I suppose in situation, I was very shocked. So, you know, maybe trying to process shock and that's something actually I wanted to touch on in terms of the difference between expected and unexpected death. Now, I think a lot of it is the same, but trying to, I think you're just put into a different situation when you're trying to speak to children when you've had maybe zero time to prepare and you are very much dealing with your own shock and grief. And I dunno if it's possible to give any advice in that situation, there's not yeah. Prepare for something because you can't go around preparing for everyone to, you know,
Speaker 4 00:22:34 It, it's one of those things we all deliberate about ourselves, you know? Oh, I'd like to go image, sleep bang gone. No. And then you kinda go actually, no, maybe I'd like to say goodbye to a few people first, but I don't wanna be sick. And, you know, so there's that kind, it's, there's, there's a plus and minus to both. Um, but I think from the point of view, if you're on the receiving end of a loss, the idea of shock is interesting shock by its definition shows, uh, the whole fuse board of our emotions. As you know, in terms of our memory, our concentration, our awareness, our presence, everything is utterly shot by shock. You know, from the point of view of the content of what we're going through, sometimes the emotion is too much, it gets suppressed, it gets, you know, overloaded, it hits you in waves.
Speaker 4 00:23:29 And I think in when anyone is in that shock position, whether it be through a loss or a car accident or whatever, it might be that there's the, the body protects itself by switching off. So when your body and brain and mind and emotions are in that shock response, it's kind of fight flight freeze. You know, some people will just freeze. Some people will get highly agitated and upset. Um, and some people will just need to get out of there. Um, and again, those three individual reactions are, are by, by their nature subject. And so for me, there's, there's very little benefit to shock when it comes to the being on the receiving end of grief. I think from the point of view of none of us like an ambush, we all like warning, you know, um, anxiety comes from a fear of the unknown.
Speaker 4 00:24:24 So when that happens, it's, it can reshuffle the pack in terms of our expectations of everything else. You know, if this can happen like this, then what is the impact of that on all of those things? So it has much more of a ripple effect and, and different deaths of different responses, you know, so you have the, the kind of long terminal illness debt score. There's a, quite a long and prolonged buildup to it. The sudden deaths through something unawares the, the death through misadventure or accident, and then you have suicides and all of these different deaths have different reactions to the grief survivors in terms of coming to terms with why. And, and, and the question, the unanswerable question of grief is why, why did this happen? Um, and we looked to spirituality, or we looked to logic, or we looked to science, or we looked to any of these will never satisfy the insatiable question of why. Uh, and that I think creates a degree of distress within the individual, which is largely very, that's the whole process. It's so difficult to answer that question. And without an answer that the, the pain remains,
Speaker 2 00:25:40 And there's a few things there that you touched off actually, that are interesting. So one thing <affirmative> that kind of come up earlier, you were saying how it's very normal for children to say, well, how, you know, when are you gonna die? When am I gonna die? When's this. And I, you always just want to kind of answer as 120, you know, avoidance, but like why, how do you answer those questions? Because obviously you're like, I don't know, but hopefully not for a very long time,
Speaker 4 00:26:16 Again, I think you, you, you acknowledge the feeling rather than the fact, you know, from the point of view of, they're obviously anxious about something and they want some knowns or some certainty. And again, that when it gets back to anxiety, being the fear of the unknown, the idea of could you die tomorrow or whatever. I mean, the answer of, uh, I have a long way to go yet, or, you know, 120 is a little bit better than actually recently I've been having a bit of chest pain that I'm quite worried about. I wouldn't suggest that as a response, but from the point of view of children need to know about the permanency of presence, not the potential for absence. So you reassured them that everything is staying the same. Their school is staying the same. Their home is staying the same. Their family is staying the same.
Speaker 4 00:27:00 And that reassurance of permanency is what dilutes the fear of loss, if that makes sense. So the idea that, you know, I, I was just, just writing recently this week about the Ukrainian children who are coming to Ireland and having experienced such abrupt loss within their lives and, and the debate about whether we should line them up for therapy and all that sort of stuff when they arrive. And I would say, no, I would think what is far more effective is reassuring them of the good in the world. You know, that they have a dilution or a corrective emotional experience that says, look, this tyrannical evilness is, but one part of society, humanity. And so if we give them smiles, education, roof, food, over their head hospitality, a welcome that will go far more to reassure them of goodness and permanency and balance than what they've experienced. And if you experience loss then, or you're fearful of loss, then the reassurance of permanency is the antidote to that in many ways. And to tell people, well, all of these things are still the same look at all that hasn't changed. Look at all. That's still good. And that helps us to ground ourselves in, in the, again, in the certainty in ourselves that that things are going to be okay.
Speaker 2 00:28:15 Yeah. Because the bad is infrequent, you know, and the good has the opportunity to be every day. And actually it was in just speaking about the Ukraine. And I know, look, it's not specifically what we're talking about today, but I've had a lot of people ask me how much to tell their kids about it. And now I have to say, our house is very open and my children ask a lot of question and are very interested. So it, it becomes easy for me to just answer their questions without again, going, going into the nitty gritty detail. Like you don't need them to be looking at horrible images and whatnot, but I think that might be particularly useful for children to be aware and have some level empathy and to understand where Ukrainian families are coming from and what they've gone through. And just to be, like I say to my kids, I like this situation where one of my daughters is, is very thoughtful and carries burdens deeply.
Speaker 2 00:29:24 So I have to be kind of conscious of how should I give her. And she came over the other day with her money box and counted out her money and took half of what was there, which was 55 euros and said, I want to give that to the people in Ukraine. And I, I kind of didn't know what to do. It's like, you don't need to do that. I've, you know, supported already. We've donated and we've sent everything we can, but she really wanted to, and I didn't want to block her. So we ended up donating to the UN H C org and I let her do it. But I was very conscious that she could be overburdening her herself, but I didn't feel like I could stop her at the same time. So it it's, it's one of those situations where it's really difficult because adults can't even solve this problem. This is an, an innate wrongness in the world. So having children understand that they're not responsible for fixing horrendous things that happen, whether it be a regular grief in the family or horrible situation, like there is in Ukraine, all they need to do really is like you say, they're to be inclusive and friendly and be kids.
Speaker 4 00:30:40 Yeah. I mean, I mean, this is really straight. I mean, I, I would say to you that, you know, I would always judge the child, how much is too much? Well, you only know how far you can bend when you break. So, you know, there's no way of predicting how much is too much until you do too much, you know? So, so the idea around that is, is tricky. What I would say is I judge the, the drip feeding of information, according to the ment of the child, not the age, you know, so the child is, again like the overthinker overthinker might need, uh, less is more, whereas another child might need a little bit more that the other side of it is children have been through so much for the last three years. This childhood has been, they're just braced for the next disaster between global pandemics climate change, you know, doom and now, uh, a global conflict.
Speaker 4 00:31:29 Um, they're overburdened. They have been Tyme in terms of their own development. And they've had three, one in a hundred year events in the space of two years. So we, we can't think outside of that, we need to shoulder some of the burden for them. I a little bit. And I think we need to, we can't see all of this, about that context. Yes. You want your child to have a social conscience. That's a very helpful thing for them to develop, but not to be awake advice, worrying about children in Ukraine, dying and, and striking that balance is really difficult. It's really tricky. But again, it's a child and error process, you know, where you, the child might need to worry less. It may be about sheltering them a little bit and shielding them from things that they may be getting over, involved in a child who's, you know, maybe needs a little bit more social conscience.
Speaker 4 00:32:15 You might need to prompt them in that direction. It's funny because we had a conversation in our house a few weeks ago where I was trying to bring up the topic, cuz the, the guys weren't really mentioning it at all. And uh, I said, have you thoughts on, on the Ukraine? And my seven year old said, uh, we were in the Ukraine and I said, no, you weren't. And he said, I was. And he said, uh, do you remember it was the place where you took us, uh, the boring place with the caves and his brother says that was Newgrange. You don't <laugh>. I was clearly OK. That he wasn't enough staying up at night, worrying about Ukrainian people. You're
Speaker 2 00:32:51 Gonna have to bring him back to Newgrange to show him it's okay.
Speaker 4 00:32:55 I think it was about three at the time. All he was interested in was that there was a swing or something at the tourist center. But, um, I mean, from the point of view of, again, tailoring it to the child, tailoring it to the child each time you're a parent, you know, your child better than anyone. If you, if they need more, give them more. If they need less protect them. And you know, your job as a parent is to regulate their emotions, regulate their food, their they're sleep, their activities and their emotions. You regulate their emotions. It's your role as the adult in the room to try and do that, a ask
Speaker 2 00:33:28 Home and <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:33:29 Yeah. Apparently is simple. It's just not easy. You know what I mean? From the point of view, um, what you have to do is very clear, but how you do it is incredibly complex. Um, yeah, I would, I would absolutely go with, um, gauging it per child, be guided by their temperament and be accepting that you'll make mistakes. You'll tell them too much sometimes and freak them out and you'll tell them too little sometimes and leave them a little oblivious. Your parenting is about failure. Like all of us are mistakes all the time, the whole PO like, and especially when it comes to grief, um, you know, managing grief effectively is aspirational. You know, that none of us do that. None of us do it, right? We'll always get it wrong. We'll always make mistakes. And you know, you're just hoping that those mistakes are something that you can repair or that they be something that you can work with afterwards, but expecting to be the greatest parent in the world while you've experienced the loss of your dad and trying to parent your children is simply an impossible task.
Speaker 4 00:34:33 And, and one that you are destined to fail, uh, and accepting that that is an inevitability automatically. It puts you in a better position to, to try and respond and manage it the more perfect you want something. The more likely you are to be disappointed. And I think anyone who's going through their own grief and loss has to cut themselves on slack. That at that point, your parenting skills are going to be fairly dire. Understandably so because your head is elsewhere, but there's to recover that and bring that back and manage it when you're more able to do that yourself, but asking someone in shock to sign their name is difficult. Never mind asking them to parent two or three children while they're doing that too. And you know, maybe you're not failing anything, you're just surviving everything. And I think that's really important message that we need, especially in the world where perfect parenting seems to be the goal for everyone. You know, it's a perfect parenting is a unicorn, a mythical creature that doesn't exist. A and again, especially in grief and crisis, we have to be able to reduce the parental pressure on ourselves to get it right.
Speaker 2 00:35:39 I think there, what's really funny about perfect parenting almost by definition and acknowledgement of every child being different. There can be no standard perfect parenting because your perfect parenting is actually just having a relationship with your children.
Speaker 4 00:35:58 Well, the idea that there's one I there's one way to parent is an absolute nonsense. That would suggest that there's one type of child. Yeah. Which really clearly isn't. So parenting is about being able to be flexible and adaptable to the circumstance in front of you to be harsh when you need to be harsh to be firm and you need to be firm to be when you need to be soft. So the skill of it's the, an art of communication, flexibility, and response, not a strategy or a regime or a plan, you know,
Speaker 2 00:36:27 And I think actually sometimes the burden of say perfect parenting in terms of, you know, how social media accounts or anyone can come across. I think that really inhibits the natural moments. If you're overthinking things, it's really good to just look at what's in front of you and enjoy what's there. I think you can miss so many lovely moments and experiences with your kids when they're trying to go down one path, but you think because of unrealistic expect or weird notions from the internet, that the other one is what you should be doing. That's another missed opportunity. It's a very important to focus on your own family and your own.
Speaker 4 00:37:07 Yeah. When, when the sharing of the experience trumps the experience, then you've got a problem.
Speaker 2 00:37:13 <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:37:13 Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:37:14 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So think are very different to how they were in old, in old Ireland, which is a welcome thing. But as a result, things have changed and a lot of people struggle with their beliefs in religion. And just in general, what happens after you die? A lot of people will have strong religious beliefs and that can guide them through, you know, the conversations with their kids. That's fine. They kind of have almost a path to follow with the communication. Whereas there'll be a lot of people out there who have no idea what happens and are themselves overwhelmed by the thought and don't know how to, you know, portray any sort of comfort to their children. So what I'm wondering is when you don't know what happens after death, which <laugh> really, no one knows, but you know, when you feel very strongly that you have no idea what happens, how do you communicate that to children in a useful way that is that lying to them?
Speaker 4 00:38:22 The innocence of childhood is that regardless of the, the spiritual religious element of what, where you come from protecting childhood innocence is part of their development. So essentially what trauma is, is when you introduce something into a child or anyone's life that they are not emotionally, socially or cognitively able to cope with. Right? So the idea that, you know, you and I might go to cup face jacks three in the morning, and we won't be traumatized by that experience, hopefully send a nine year old into their, and they might be right. Not because the event is traumatic, but because developmentally and socially, they're not able for that experience. Right? So degree of protecting childhood in, in innocence involves fantasy, protecting them from the harsh realities of life by producing fantasy objects is utterly understandable. It's it's strategic. It's not just for the fun and for the crack it's to protect them from, you know, we talk about, uh, in cases, any layers ever listening to this in a car or something that, that what happens to our teeth, uh, when they fall out and, you know, yearly visitors that come to the house, you know, the, these are important strategies, which children to be protected from reality in terms of the reality of when you die, that's the end, or if there is a fantasy that we can still talk to them, pray to them, you know, they're in the sky as a star or whatever.
Speaker 4 00:39:51 It might be offers a bridge from harsh reality of closure, you know, from the point of view of, uh, that's the end. And so protecting children by providing something that shields them, and maybe let's go with the Ukraine thing. So VI child says, what's happening in the Ukraine. You want to go honesty, you go right, sit down here and gonna show you all these bodies on the road. I'm gonna show you this. I'm gonna show that it's not necessary. It's not necessary. It's too much. So we'll give a filtered version of the truth to protect their innocence. Now, when it comes to death and heaven and all those places that we talk about, if you have beliefs that heaven is not exist, and every Eau that you very anti that perhaps narrative, is there another way that you can smooth the harshness of death by maybe suggesting that they become a star in the sky, or, you know, there's, uh, I D reincarnation, whatever it might be, that there's something after it allows us to maintain some connection with the last figure, Al be that a prayer, a picture, a Memorial card, like Memorial is important to us that we hold onto pieces of something like faith is by definition, believing in something that you can't see and having that faith is, you know, whether that's angels, fairies God, another God, whatever it might be, it is protective of us.
Speaker 4 00:41:28 And again, I'm, I'm going down a rabbit hole here. We're going possibly people shouting at the podcast saying he's wrong. He's wrong. I'm not claiming to be right in anything that I believe. And I'm not imposing any belief that I have on anyone else. But I'm just saying that having an alternative narrative, other than that's, that now is useful and convenient. And maybe it's about putting the needs of your child around their comfort and safety in the world above your own need. For honesty, at times, that might soothe or smooth the transition of loss for them.
Speaker 2 00:42:02 I have a wonderful sister-in-law who recently lost her dad. And she did a really, what I thought was one wonderful way of bridging that, that loss. And it just might be useful for people. She had very much explained, you know, that there was a working heart and a loving heart, and that the working heart had stopped working, but that the loving heart will always be there. So, you know, it's not saying where it's not saying anything, but it's just saying that even though the physical being is gone, the love is still there. And you can adapt that any, you know, any way you want to where love exists within your own heart for that person. You know, I, I, I thought it was kind of a nice way, especially, you know, for very young children. So like that just a way to, to soften the severity of the situation.
Speaker 4 00:43:00 Yeah. And again, don't wanna estimate how much of an impact stuff. I know my daughter, um, she was very fond of that movie, Coco, and I dunno if you're familiar with it, but about an afterlife kind of experience. And, but the idea was that as long as you were remember someone they stay alive. So the idea is to keep their memory alive. Um, and, and the process of that was really useful because in the case of my aunt had died a few years back and she would talk about, we need to keep talking about rose because, you know, we need to keep her as part of our life now that she they've maintained elsewhere, regardless of the factual truth of any of that, it is encourages people to, to speak about lost ones or people who've passed and, and keeping memories alive, which I think is where we need to be. We need to be able to talk about granddad or aunt or mom or dad in a way that is reminisce and is poignant and is both happy and sad at the same time, because it is, it's a mixed emotion. When we remember recall something that was joyous, but the fact that they're not here anymore is sad. And so being able to tolerate those two emotions are offering the family. That narrative is it's, it's convenient for sure.
Speaker 2 00:44:16 I found it very amusing after my own dad died. The difference between children and adults. So adults seemed to find it more difficult to maybe mention, you know, they'd say, oh, how are you, you know, the kind of weighted question, but very difficult to talk about memories or afraid to maybe speak about him in a way in any about any story that he was maybe involved in, just for fear of upsetting you, which comes from the best possible place, but the children, my own kids, oh, like they had no bound trees and to the point where it was difficult to stomach at times, you know, but I think that's something I welcomed in a way, because as hard as it was, you know, it was keeping him going now, sensitivity, maybe something they could have worked on because, you know, there was definitely times with my former mom where the kids go, oh, you must be very sad cuz you know, dad said, and you're like, oh my God, how do you, how do you kind of teach them? Well, it's good to talk, but you know yeah. <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:45:22 But uh, but I think children cut to the point, you know, and they don't, they're not limited by social nuance or politeness. And it's interesting you say that because my, my, my mum's sister, my aunt who passed away about three years ago, my children would know her. Would've known her when she was around. And we were up at my mother's house recently and my daughter just sat up on the couch, her side and my mum and said, do you Ms. Rose? And I was like, oh crap. Like you don't open that Cal of worms. And my mom said, yeah, I do. And she's like, what do you miss about her? You know? And mom was just went into a conversation about how she, and, and I know afterwards, my mom walked away from that conversation feeling better.
Speaker 2 00:46:04 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:46:05 Yeah. And I thought it was gonna be a disaster thought, oh no, we're gonna have tears or something. You know, this is really upsetting or picking at scabs, whatever the case may be. But I think my mom got something out of being able to have a conversation about it and, and people who, who experience grief, talk about the awkwardness of other people around them and how that makes. And they want a license to be able to talk about who they miss the person. They want to be able to talk about them and everyone in around them often guns goes to extreme measures to not mention them. Yeah. You know what I mean, for fear that it will, you know, as I say, upset them or, or provoke something, whereas the majority of people who have experienced loss want to freedom or have the license to be able to experience or talk about the person, not even about their loss, but just to, to, to have that conversation.
Speaker 4 00:46:59 And so I think oftentimes what we perceive as being protective of other people is not exactly accurate. If that makes sense. Now that said, I don't know whether I would have the recklessness or the courage or whatever it be to just go to someone and say, how are you since that? But you know, I think that's a really challenging thing to do because I think you fear it could go either way, but I would be reassured by the conversations that I've had for people who have survived grief that in actual fact, the conversation is not what they fear. You know, that's not as feared as maybe we imagine it to be.
Speaker 2 00:47:34 I think it's probably two different things though, because there's one thing asking someone how their grieving journey is going. And then there's another thing going, do you remember the time your dad did this or it's deflecting the con conversation from the person who's grieving to actually a normal conversation, maybe about
Speaker 4 00:47:56 The person? Are you suggesting that the second one is better than the first? Yes. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:48:01 I think so, because I think a lot of people are curious about grief and I personally found that I wasn't able to offer them maybe what they needed from me. My, I, I always felt my, not that my grief was inadequate, but I'm quite, I carry it in a way that I'm very aware. I feel it. And I do process it, but I'm, I'm not a teary person. So I feel that I may, maybe didn't have enough to give other people to satisfy them, that they were engaging in a conversation that was useful to me. So I find it nicer if people say things like I know even at work, cuz obviously I didn't have very long off work after my dad died and you know, you're off for the few days and people were afraid to mention them. And now they know if I say, oh, do you remember that time when we were there and dad did this, like they no longer kind of get uptight. If I mentioned dad, they know that's a topic that I like to talk about. And I find that helpful for exactly the same reasons that you said you don't want to forget about someone just because they died. And it's nearly upsetting to think that you might have to, to save other people's awkwardness. So I think it's probably good for people to focus on
Speaker 4 00:49:21 Just
Speaker 2 00:49:22 Person.
Speaker 4 00:49:23 There's one thing you said there. And I think it's important to kind of just to mention it in, in that process of you felt you didn't grieve adequately or, you know, a kind of demonstrate of griever by your lack of tears or whatever, you know, there's this sort of notion that there's a way to grieve and you know, said it already in the conversation that it's a very subjective and you know, individual experience. But I always use this when I'm teaching with students about how do you define an abnormal grief reaction, you know, in terms of, if you lose a partner and you're still sad a year later, is that okay or not? You know, at what point should you be okay or not? And it's impossible to say, so how do we well say no it's I always think about, I, I was interested in those insurance forms where they say, if you lose a finger, you get 1500.
Speaker 4 00:50:12 If you is an arm, you get two grand. It's almost like the, the closeness of the relationship has some sort of measurable grief time that you're supposed to be able to be recovered within that time. And if it's not that, you know, these are completely arbitrary timelines, completely arbitrary behaviors in how you should respond or shouldn't respond and you should cry for this and you should be sad for this. And then you should go back to work after this time and you should be able to function. There's literally no way of measuring or having any metric as to a, the intense of the relationship between you and the last person and B uh, in terms of the measure sadness that is appropriate to that loss, right? And it's another nonsense to have that conversation. Now, someone who may be particularly struggling may need support around their struggle with grief and what I always notice in children.
Speaker 4 00:51:09 And I think it is something that is crucially important to say when children lose, let's imagine a parent when they're very small and they seem to be fine around that time. And what happens is they get ushered towards this kind of therapy, play therapy, whatever it might be to of manage the grief. And the child goes in and draws a few pictures and they're absolutely fine and there doesn't see anything wrong. And they're kind of, this is cumbersome and why do I have to go here and all that sort of stuff. So let's say they're seven or eight years of age and they lose their mum and they get on fine. And the next year they're fine, two years fine. Then that little girl turns 13. She starts her, she starts puberty. She starts to look for her mom in her life. And mom is gone.
Speaker 4 00:51:54 Now that's when the grief hits, right? But it's five years since mom's death, they don't feel they have a license. They don't feel they have permission. Everyone has claimed that they've gotten through it and their grand. And so they don't want to let the side down by becoming upset five years later, maybe their dad is just coming out of his own grief over the last five years. They don't want to re upset him and all that sort of stuff. Developmental upset is never, always immediate at the time. It may take years for that to come. Right. And it's one of the things I've been trying to say to during the COVID thing, you know, the impact of COVID may not be now. It may be in five years time where children have lost out on a particular aspect of their development or their lives. They seem to be fine now, but they don't have that experience.
Speaker 4 00:52:44 And the amount of times that I've seen and what I'd describe as kind of maturation grief at the seven, I don't understand the loss at 13. I do. Now. I understand the magnitude of what it was that I went through. Now it's hitting me now. I'm feeling it, but I have no permission to be upset about it because the arbitrary set of circumstances says that I can only grieve within the first six months of the death and then I should be open. Does that make sense? And so the wherewithal are giving someone the license to grieve whenever they want. They're not, they didn't grieve adequately at the time because they were seven. They're grieving now because they're 13 and it's, it means something different to them. And I'd love to see us move away from the measurement and metric of well, if this, if it's only an aunt that died, you can really only need one day off work.
Speaker 4 00:53:36 And if it's a granny, it's three days and if it's a mom, you can get a week and you know, and it's, it's, it's another nonsense, you know? And there was a one experience where I did a camp down in Barretts town years ago, a guy called Peter Hanlin was a Beaman therapist. And we did a camp for people. Who'd lost parents or sisters or brothers, and it was called camp Patrick. And it was a beautiful thing. We went down for the weekend. We all had residential thing. We did archery and all that, but we talked, we had group sessions talking about the loss and everything, and there was two children there. And, uh, it was an aunt that had died. And I remember people saying, why are they, how come they got here with only an aunt? You know, there was gonna, but it turns out I talked to them and their aunt had Dan syndrome and lived in the house with them all their lives.
Speaker 4 00:54:18 So their aunt was like a sibling to them. Um, and their loss was as justified as announce is there. But we made an assumption based on the fact of the perceived relationship was more distant than we would Ima you know what I mean? And, and again, it's all that nonsense that allows us. It gives us an idea that there's some way in which we should grieve, which is I believe a preposterous and there's a belief that we should be over grief, grief by a certain set of circumstances. Uh, and I think that's nonsense too. And I think we just need to allow people to have their experience. Now there's an experience when we can get stuck in grief and we may need help to kinda get unstuck our support ourselves through that, where our thoughts don't allow us to do that. But for me, if we are to look grief, loss, grievance sadness, they're the bits I, I think we need to address. And again, I said before we do those three days brilliantly, we need to get the three decades afterwards, better.
Speaker 2 00:55:18 Maybe complicated grief comes in when someone gets stuck in grief, obviously in an adult, think that's easy to see in a Childs might be more difficult as a parent you're, you're pushing them through their routines. So they don't have to make the choice about do I get up to date, do I go to football? Do I do this? Whereas an adult, you kind of have more of an opt out basis. It's important. How do you identify if your child is stuck and you know, how do you help them overcome that
Speaker 4 00:55:47 Again, into the kind of acute grief of missing someone acutely? And then you work towards living with their AB we shouldn't have timelines or metrics on those, on those issues, but queer, for example, there is a stuckness or an inability to negotiate or something you just can't get past that for me is, is where the help might be. So life's a bit like an obstacle course. I don't know if you watch the art fit family sort of thing. You know, they, they could get through these barrels and over bails and all this, and there's one thing they just can't keen to get stuck on. They can't seem to get over that wall or whatever the case may be. And, uh, you give them as as much attempts as you can. And then you'll end up going in to give them a dig over. And then they keep going again in terms of lots of relationship, lot breakup of a relationship, death bereavement, there, a process we just can't get past a certain piece, whether that's acceptance, whether that's moving on, whether that's, whatever that might be, the, the stuff this may need. Some that's where the complication occurs. Right? And that's where the support may be required. But it's not to say that you're grieving wrong. It's just, there's, there's an element of it that is impeding your return to function.
Speaker 2 00:56:55 So how do you recognize that in kids?
Speaker 4 00:56:58 Um, well, I, I think from the point of view of say for children, they have very visible functioning areas. They have school, they have sports, they have all these things, regardless of how pushed you are to go to things, your performance in them will be indicative of where you're at. When you see their spellings are gone from nine and eight, outta tens to three and fours outta 10, even though you've pushed them in there, they're not functioning in that area. That's an indication that something is AIS. You have have a baseline there of their functioning and you'll see, you know, it's so no different to adults. You know, you're missing a lot more days in work than you normally would. You're hitting the bed. You're not doing your hobbies as much as you would. Although they're autonomous decisions in adults, children don't have the autonomy to say, I'm not doing that today, but they will.
Speaker 4 00:57:40 Coaches will come back and say, God, she's really her. Heart's not in the basket ball anymore. Or there's something not right. She doesn't seem to be at the same level. And those red flags are things that will always signify where we're struggling with life and, and life is a struggle for many children. And so the key for us is to try and identify which aspect of life is causing the difficulty in trying to iron out that CRE. But we have to be watching them to know that being aware of where there's changes in their baseline or performance. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 00:58:11 Yes, it does. I'm conscious how long I'm keeping you here because I could talk forever. Um, I wanted to mention one thing just before we finish up. Um, I know you touched off it earlier, but obviously there are children out there who have experienced the loss through suicide, maybe of a parent or another family member. I dunno if you have any other useful or resources, but a friend of mine had made me aware of Winston's wish, which is a website that provides a lot of workbooks and things not, as you say, to kind of deal with the issue in any hope of resolving it. It's something that's going to need a lot of support throughout life, but to assist young children, to talk about their feelings at the time, I think there's a lot of useful resources on that particular website.
Speaker 4 00:58:58 People will talk when they're ready and I'm not so sure that the children are always ready to do that. Children find it safer to talk in a once remove. So if you're talking about a story or talking about something that they can relate to, oftentimes, and again, I go back to what I started out with in kind of the fairy tale piece. So by reading stories and explaining reactions and things like that, children, especially smaller children with much better be able to borrow the language of others than maybe come up with themselves. When I was doing my podcast, I, I, I interviewed Benji Bennett, who is Adam's cloud. Uh, he, he lost his son and those Adam's cloud books are beautifully written illustrated books to tell a story and they connect on many levels with loss and things of that. I really cool, cool way to, to kind of help a child process it, children process through play stories, narratives, they don't process through intense shine, a light in my face in conversations.
Speaker 4 00:59:52 Yeah. And so you do it in a child in a child way. You'll get a lot better conversation out of a child while you're baking something. Then you will sit them down at the desk and saying, let's go for this. We're gonna unpick this now. So, you know, it'll emerge, but again, resources wise, Rainbow's fantastic organization that have been doing huge work for years in terms of supporting children with loss. What I would like it to be is more accommodating to the timeline. And again, I go back to the idea that the child may not grieve in the first month after the last, they may grief five years later. And I think accommodating that, and maybe that's when they need the story. That's when you take out the look not two weeks after something has happened
Speaker 2 01:00:32 Yeah. In that situation. Well, you're just trying to fix things, aren't you with any grief and you can't fix things. So I think, like I say, there, maybe allowing yourself to compassion and understanding that this isn't something that needs to be fixed. This is something that needs to be talked about forever
Speaker 4 01:00:50 A hundred percent. Yeah. And, and again, grief is never fixed. Yes. You know, it's worked through, or it is, it's kind of listened to it. It's heard it's, it doesn't go away. You know, the idea that it does is, is a fantasy. You know, we, we develop a better relationship with it.
Speaker 2 01:01:07 I really would see it as a positive in a way it's a, that's my nature. Everything's positive, but it's a mark of the good relationship you had. And so, you know that it's a symptom of that and you can allow your yourself to enjoy and remember that person.
Speaker 4 01:01:26 And if I can finish on this and I think it's probably, you know, the, we have to be aware of toxic positivity as well. You know, children are okay to be sad. They're, they're built to be sad and they're okay. And it, it's almost okay to allow them to be not to get in and go, oh my God, you're sad. We have to do something, distract you from your sadness. A degree of sadness is, is part of the process you need to, it needs to sting a little in order for it to, to heal, uh, uh, I guess, and, uh, as much as we, as parents hate to see our children in distress, it's part of it. Loss is inevitable in many ways in our lives in of heartbreak. If we think about it, there's a whole industry of books, songs, movies that are all based on this high and the intense, emotional experience. It is the leading cause of, of why people end up sad is the loss of something. It is the hardest thing to overcome. It's the unanswerable question. It's the unfixable problem, but it, maybe it's not about fixing it. Maybe it's just about creating a relationship with it that allows us to keep going.
Speaker 2 01:02:36 Very good. Thank you so much for your time today, Coleman, we really, really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 01:02:41 Pleasure seeing thank you very much.
